Infinite Differentiation and Integration?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the convergence of a function's derivative and antiderivative when taken an infinite number of times. Participants explore various outcomes of this process, including potential behaviors such as blowing up to infinity, approaching zero, converging to a function, or alternating between functions. Additionally, there is a related inquiry into methods for approximating integrals that do not have closed forms.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the convergence of derivatives and antiderivatives can lead to several outcomes: blowing up to infinity, approaching zero, converging to a function, or alternating between functions.
  • Another participant discusses a method for approximating integrals of products of simpler functions using integration by parts repeatedly, providing an example involving the integral of sin(x)/x.
  • It is noted that for certain integrals, such as those related to Si(x) and Ci(x), the series appears to converge for x greater than 1, with graphical evidence supporting this claim.
  • Concerns are raised about determining convergence for other functions, with a hypothesis that if the derivative of one function approaches zero while the antiderivative of another does not increase, then the series may converge.
  • A later reply references introductory analysis books that cover convergence and uniform convergence of functions, suggesting that these resources may provide relevant insights.
  • Another participant proposes a straightforward approach to assess convergence by treating the nth term of the expansion as a normal infinite series and applying standard convergence tests.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the methods for determining convergence and the implications of their findings. While some suggest specific approaches, others highlight the complexity and variability of convergence behavior, indicating that the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants mention the need for a convergence radius and the importance of considering the behavior of derivatives and integrals in relation to each other, but these aspects remain underexplored and not fully resolved.

Manchot
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I was just wondering if there was any theory or theorems involving the convergence of a function's derivative/antiderivative taken an infinite number of times. It would seem to me that there are four types of ways that it can happen: it blows up to infinity, approaches zero, approaches some function, or alternates between several functions. Based on my premliminary investigations, there's even functions which do a combination of the three. Anyway, I'm basically looking for some reading material on the subject, and was hoping that one of you people have read something about it.

Furthermore, I'm looking for some reading material about techniques of evalutating/approximating integrals without a closed form, without using a sum of values in the interval as an approximation. Any help is vastly appreciated.
 
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Ok, actually, my two questions are related. Basically, what I'm trying to find is a method for approximating integrals which are a product of two "simpler" ones, using integration by parts an infinite number of times. I've had success with certain ones, such as the integrals which correspond with Si(x) and Ci(x). For example...

[tex]\int{\frac{\sin{x}}{x}dx}<br /> \\ <br /> =-\frac{\cos{x}}{x}-\int{\frac{\cos{x}}{x^2}dx}<br /> \\ <br /> =-\frac{\cos{x}}{x}-\frac{\sin{x}}{x^2}+2\int{\frac{\sin{x}}{x^3}dx}+...[/tex]

Obviously, this is separated from the acutal Ci(x) by a constant, but that's not really the point. The point is that for every integration, though the average value of the sin/cos remains constant, the negative power keeps getting larger, meaning that each successive integral is less than the ones before it (for x greater than 1). Therefore, it would seem that the series converges for x greater than 1, and upon graphing it, I found that it is indeed an asymptotic expansion for Ci(x) (when the appropriate constant is added, of course).

However, for other functions, determining convergence isn't quite so simple. It occurred to me that if the derivative of one of the multiplied functions approaches zero, and if the antiderivative of the other one doesn't increase, then this type of series will converge. That's why I'm trying to find the convergence radius.
 
I think you may find this topic covered somewhat in the context you are looking for in any introductory analysis book where sequences and series are covered. Although my professor did not do much with it for our class, there was some material in our book about convergence and uniform convergence of functions, and I think of the derivatives of functions too. It preceded the section on power series, which seems like what you are looking for with the convergence radius.
 
The solution is simple: Write out the the nth term of the expansion and look at it as a normal infinite series. Apply standard test for convergence, etc. Your case of "if the derivative gets smaller and the integral stays similar..." is just a special case of the method above. Also, if the derivative stays similar and the integral gets smaller...or if they both get bigger apart but together get smaller... :-p

P.S. don't forget to include the sum from one to N of terms and the integral of the Nth term, making sure that both converge together.
 
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