Why we consider light to be massless?

  • Context: Undergrad 
  • Thread starter Thread starter godzilla7
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of light being considered massless, exploring the implications of this characterization in the context of physics. Participants delve into the nature of photons, their energy, and the distinction between rest mass and relativistic mass, while also touching on the philosophical aspects of these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the characterization of light as massless is a philosophical issue, expressing confusion about how something can be both a particle and a wave without mass.
  • One participant suggests that UV photons are more energetic than visible photons, leading to a discussion about the implications of describing them as "more massive," which some argue is misleading.
  • Another participant emphasizes that "massive" refers strictly to rest mass, prompting questions about the possibility of UV photons having a higher rest mass.
  • There is a discussion about the concept of "relativistic mass," with some participants arguing it is outdated and potentially confusing, while others express uncertainty about its relevance.
  • One participant proposes that if light had mass, it would have significant implications, and they inquire about the effects of light being bent by gravity due to spacetime curvature.
  • Another participant clarifies that light has no rest mass and discusses the relationship between mass and energy, referencing the equation E²=(m₀c²)²+(pc)².
  • There is curiosity about the implications of stopping light or slowing it down, with references to experiments that have achieved this through absorption and re-emission processes.
  • Participants engage in mathematical reasoning regarding the energy and momentum of photons, discussing the de Broglie hypothesis and the relationship between frequency, wavelength, and momentum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of mass in relation to photons, particularly regarding the concepts of rest mass and relativistic mass. There is no consensus on whether describing photons as "more massive" based on energy is appropriate, and the discussion remains unresolved on several points.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the ambiguity surrounding the definitions of mass, the varying interpretations of relativistic mass, and the implications of light's properties that remain open to further exploration.

godzilla7


can anyone explain why we consider light to be massless is this a philosophy question then?

just trying to understand how something can be a particle and a wave yet have no mass. Just starting physics degree and need to get to grips with some of the fundamentals is this a difficult question, or do we just not know?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Physics news on Phys.org
Last edited by a moderator:
"UV photons are more energetic than visible photons, and so are more "massive" in this sense, a statement which obscures more than it elucidates"

Am I right here?
UV photons are more energetic because a stronger energy or interaction sent them off. Their energy is dependent on only frequency and momentum. If we were to say they were more massive then visible photons, this would have a huge effect on their speed and frequency. And you couldn't consider them light. So saying that UV photons are more massive, is strictly relativistic and isn't worth saying right?
 
No,the adjective "massive" strictly refers to "rest mass".Period...

Daniel.
 
So you're saying UV photons have a higher rest mass? Is that possible?
 
If zero UV is greater than zero visible,then it must be so...

It means that we've invented the mathematics which sets two zero-s unequal...

Daniel.
 
Wow that's new for me and hard to understand. Is there a name for such a concept or any keyword that I could google and read about?
 
DB said:
"UV photons are more energetic than visible photons, and so are more "massive" in this sense, a statement which obscures more than it elucidates"

Am I right here?
Right about what? You are quoting a line from the second article I linked. The line before this one sets the context: "On the other hand, the "relativistic mass" of photons is frequency dependent." The author's point is that the concept of "relativistic mass" is old-fashioned and confusing; don't use it unless you know what you are doing.


UV photons are more energetic because a stronger energy or interaction sent them off. Their energy is dependent on only frequency and momentum.
The energy and momentum of a photon depend on its frequency.
If we were to say they were more massive then visible photons, this would have a huge effect on their speed and frequency.
Huh? They have a greater "relativistic mass", but so what? The invariant mass of both is zero (that's the one that counts). Their speed is still c.
And you couldn't consider them light. So saying that UV photons are more massive, is strictly relativistic and isn't worth saying right?
Reread those articles. I'm not sure you got the message.
 
DB said:
Wow that's new for me and hard to understand. Is there a name for such a concept or any keyword that I could google and read about?

Ouch,if you didn't get my joke,it must have been really bad,huh...? :rolleyes: No,there's no math.And two zero's will be always be the same.
Photons are massless,because the equations which tell it are confirmed by experimental results...
We have no reason to think otherwise.

Daniel.
 
  • #10
dextercioby said:
Ouch,if you didn't get my joke,it must have been really bad,huh...?
I thought it was funny... but maybe that says something about me. :bugeye:
 
  • #11
Doc Al said:
Right about what? You are quoting a line from the second article I linked. The line before this one sets the context: "On the other hand, the "relativistic mass" of photons is frequency dependent." The author's point is that the concept of "relativistic mass" is old-fashioned and confusing; don't use it unless you know what you are doing.
I ment am i right about the following paragraph i wrote, not the quote.
 
  • #12
DB said:
I ment am i right about the following paragraph i wrote, not the quote.
OK. (Sorry if I mistook your statement.) My comments on that paragraph are above. No, I'd say you were not right (mostly). While it is perfectly possible to describe things using "relativistic mass" (if you know how that's defined), I would advise against it: stick to the usual meaning of mass (the invariant mass or "rest mass"). All particles, including photons, have a fixed mass that is independent of inertial reference frame.
 
  • #13
BTW,the concept of "relativistic mass" is rather fuzzy,meaning that you 2 options to think about when hearing it:the mass from SR (namely with the 'unaltered' gamma factor),or the one from GR (with the 'altered' gamma factor involving the gravitational potential)...
So "mass" means "rest mass" in all contexts..

Daniel.
 
  • #14


Thanks for your replies, don't encourage dexter you'll give him a big head; besides I am the smartest person on this forum :wink:
 
  • #15


I see, we are not saying absolutely that light has no mass, but we believe it to be zero or if not very very small.

What if light Had mass, any implications other than those in the 2 articles.

Also the bit about why light is bent by objects, that is because an object such as the moon bends space time and so the light is not attracted by the gravity merely deviated by the warping of the fabric of space, this is true is it not?

Anyway thanks again.
 
  • #16
No we are saying that light has no rest mass. The trick is to realize that mass is nothing special. It's mass-energy that we are really interested in, since one can change into another. It is all contained in the equation [tex]E^2=(m_0c^2)^2+(pc)^2[/tex].
 
  • #17


Yes I can see that now, rest mass, relative mass; what would happen if we could stop light, I.e. make it travel at a velocity of 0? what would happen to the wave, would it cease to exist? I've heard that containing light or at least controlling it would be a rather usefull skill to master. I know they have stopped light or at least slowed it to very low speeds, can we use this to get any insight into the way light propogates?
 
  • #18
The speed of light will never change in any inertial frame (i.e. any co-ordinate system which is not accelerating). When they say they have stopped light, what they really mean is that they have got a bunch of photons that are being absorbed and re-emitted within the atoms of some material such that the group of photons don't propagate through the material at light speed. The photons themselves actually do travel at light speeds; it's the added delay in absorption and re-emission that "slows" the light down.

In fact, light has energy given by [tex]E=hf[/tex] and according to the equation I have put above, knowing that [tex]m_0=0[/tex] for photons, we have

[tex]hf=(pc)^2\Rightarrow p^2=\frac{hf}{c^2}[/tex]

showing that light can never be stopped.
 
  • #19
Light can't be stopped!

Hey when I turn off the light switch it stops it :smile: thanks for posting, interesting stuff.
 
  • #20
Sorry, I made a rather large error in my previous post.

I said [tex]E=hf[/tex] so what we actually get is

[tex](hf)^2=(pc)^2 \Rightarrow p=\frac{hf}{c}[/tex]

As an interesting aside, we remembering that [tex]v=f\lambda[/tex] for a wave, and that for light v=c we get [tex]fc^{-1}=\lambda^{-1}[/tex]

and finally putting that together with what we had at the start gives us

[tex]p=\frac{h}{\lambda}[/tex]

which is the de Broglie hypothesis. No problem for the post, by the way.
 

Similar threads

Undergrad 2-Slit: How do we know photon guns only produce single photons?
  • · Replies 33 ·
2
Replies
33
Views
3K
Undergrad Why is Photon Energy Quantized in Terms of Sine Wave Frequency?
  • · Replies 78 ·
3
Replies
78
Views
7K
Undergrad Are photons definitely massless?
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
4K
Undergrad Speed of information in a medium
  • · Replies 38 ·
2
Replies
38
Views
5K
Undergrad What empirical observation supports the axiom of continuous spacetime?
  • · Replies 23 ·
Replies
23
Views
2K
Undergrad Please help me understand the double slit experiment and conclusion
  • · Replies 65 ·
3
Replies
65
Views
5K
Undergrad Understanding the proof of Goldstone theorem
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
Undergrad The physical components in the electron double slit experiment
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
Undergrad Does the wave function shorten when approaching light speed?
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
1K
Undergrad TISE solutions should be combinations-of-eigenstates, why this is not?
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K