Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle and ions

[jhirlo]

Recently I had a discussion with friends about impact of H.U.P. on some biological functions.
We had disagreement, about uncertainty of position of ion, say in neuron connected to another one by synapse, as a consequence of HUP, point was that if there is some uncertainty in position of ion or electron, your nerve synapse may fire up randomly, and that would be the and of programmed fate (no determinism). Let’s discard these conclusions, because I’m interested in physics of this process.

I’ve claimed, that there’s no uncertainty unless we measure some property of that ion (Na+), and there’s no influence of HUP on that process. I’m I right, or they are ?

 

[so-crates]

Well, I'm not a big biology person, but quantum mechanics does have an efffect on molecules like ammonia (inversion of nitrogen), not to mention resonance behavior in even larger molecules, so I don't see any reason to throw it out for a sodium ion.

Keep in mind though, that when your are talking about nerve synapses, you are talking about interactions of thousands-millions of particles, so I imagine the never synapse exhibits a statistical behavior that "shields" quantum mechanical effects.

Think of the P-N junction in a diode. It does not behave non-deterministically - even though for an individual electron there is a chance to tunnel the barrier. The system is large enough so that current is more or less predictable vs. an applied voltage. Actually, there is a lot of talk right now about how small you can make transistors(PNP or NPN junctions) before QM effects render the device unusable.

In order to truly understand what is going on, of course you need QM, so you can never just "ignore" it. With all apologies to any hard core bio people here, that's the reason why a lot of big advances in biology are being made by physicist/chemist hybrid types, because they are reaching the limits of what conventional classical understanding can reveal.

 

[R0man]

Your claim is correct. The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle does not have a direct influence on the behavior of ions in biological processes such as nerve synapses. This principle applies to the quantum level, where the position and momentum of particles cannot be simultaneously measured with perfect accuracy. However, at the macroscopic level where biological processes occur, the effects of the HUP are negligible.

In the case of ions in a nerve synapse, their positions and velocities are not affected by the HUP unless they are being measured. The behavior of ions is governed by classical physics and is not subject to the same uncertainty as quantum particles.

Furthermore, the HUP does not introduce randomness into biological processes. Randomness is a concept that is often misunderstood in relation to quantum mechanics. While there is inherent uncertainty in the behavior of quantum particles, this does not mean that everything in the universe is completely random. Biological processes are still governed by the laws of classical physics and are not affected by the probabilistic nature of quantum mechanics.

In summary, the HUP does not have a direct impact on the behavior of ions in biological processes such as nerve synapses. Your understanding that there is no uncertainty unless a measurement is made is correct. It is important to clarify misunderstandings about the HUP and its effects on macroscopic systems.