Where does the formula for dtheta in polar coordinates come from?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the derivation of the formula for dtheta in polar coordinates, specifically in relation to a diagram provided by a participant. The conversation explores the mathematical relationships between polar and Cartesian coordinates and how changes in these coordinates affect the angle theta.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant references a diagram and a textbook formula for dtheta, asking how it is derived.
  • Another participant suggests using polar coordinates to express x and y, then differentiating to find theta as a function of x and y.
  • A participant expresses confusion about how to find the contributions to theta from changes in x (dx) and y (dy).
  • One participant describes a method involving visualizing a right triangle formed by delta x and its relationship to delta theta, leading to a derived expression for delta theta in terms of delta x and y.
  • The same participant indicates that a similar approach can be used to find the contribution from delta y.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the derivation process, as there are varying levels of understanding and clarity regarding the contributions of dx and dy to dtheta.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about the smallness of changes in r and the relationship between polar and Cartesian coordinates, which may not be explicitly stated. There are also unresolved aspects regarding the visual representation of the problem and the derivation steps.

Moose352
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For this diagram: http://ananth.ath.cx/coag.jpg

The textbook gives the formula for dtheta as (x*dy-y*dx) / (x^2 + y^2) assuming that r' ~ r. How is this formula derived?
 
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The easiest way is to use polar coordinates:

[tex]x = r \cos \theta[/tex]
[tex]y = r \sin \theta[/tex]

From these you can express theta as a function of x and y, and then differentiate both sides of the equation. You can also find this formula directly from the diagram by first calculating the [tex]\Delta \theta_1[/tex] that arises from [tex]\Delta x[/tex], and then [tex]\Delta \theta_2[/tex] that arises from [tex]\Delta y[/tex]. The add them to get [tex]\Delta \theta[/tex]. Note that a positive delta x decreases the angle ([tex]\Delta \theta_1[/tex] is negative). But in the diagram delta x looks (slightly?) negative.
 
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Thanks PBRMEASAP!

But I'm a bit confused by the second part. You write that i can simply add theta1 and theta2 together to find theta. How exactly do I find the theta1 and theta2 that arise from dx and dy?
 
Well, it's hard to describe without a visual aid, but I don't know how to put up a picture that isn't too large a file (I tried to post something I drew in Paint one time and it wouldn't take it).

For the delta x part, draw a picture where r' only differs from r by a small delta x (delta y = 0). Draw the little segment of length delta x that connects the end of r to end of r'. Now draw another small segment from the end of r so that it intersects r' at 90 deg. You now have formed a little right triangle with delta x as the hypotenuse. And the length of that last little segment you drew is [tex]r \Delta \theta[/tex] (approximately).

Now here's the trick. Say that r makes an angle theta (not delta theta) with the x-axis. Then so does r', approximately, since it only differs from r by a small x displacement. Then by alternate interior angles, r' makes an angle theta with the little delta x segment (still with me? :-)). Now you can see that the segment of length [tex]r \Delta \theta[/tex] is equal in magnitude to [tex]\Delta x \ \sin \theta[/tex]. Looking at the picture, you can see that the sign of delta theta is negative, so we get

[tex]\Delta \theta = -\frac{\Delta x \sin \theta}{r} = -\frac{y \Delta x}{r^2}[/tex]

The contribution from delta y is found the same way. Were you able to get the answer from polar coordinates?
 
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