How Does the Expansion of the Universe Affect Stars, Planets, and Atoms?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effects of the expansion of the universe on stars, planets, and atoms. Participants explore whether this expansion has any significant impact on the cohesion of matter at various scales, including celestial bodies and atomic structures.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that as the universe expands, stars and planets also move apart, questioning if this expansion could eventually lead to atomic bonds breaking due to increased strain.
  • Another participant asserts that matter will not tear apart due to the universe's expansion, indicating that atomic forces and gravity are strong enough to overcome this effect.
  • There is mention of "varying coupling constants" as a potential area of inquiry related to the topic.
  • One participant uses a balloon analogy to explain that the expansion of the universe primarily affects the space between galaxies, where gravitational forces are weak, and that atomic cohesion is stronger than the expansion forces.
  • A later reply questions the balloon analogy, suggesting that while the universe may not "pop," the forces involved could eventually become significant enough to affect atomic structures if the universe continues to expand indefinitely.
  • Another participant emphasizes that the effect of the universe's expansion on atomic particles is negligible and encourages calculating the relative velocity of particles due to this expansion using the Hubble constant.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the Hubble constant and seeks clarification on whether the force of expansion could become significant over time.
  • There is a discussion about the relative velocity between particles in an atom being insignificant due to their proximity, despite the expansion of the universe.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the impact of the universe's expansion on matter. Some argue that atomic forces will prevent any significant effects, while others speculate about potential future implications. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Some participants reference concepts like the Hubble constant and the dynamics of atomic forces, but there is no consensus on how these relate to the expansion of the universe and its effects on matter.

Read first post. Do you think this can happen? Why?

  • Yes

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • No

    Votes: 5 71.4%

  • Not sure

    Votes: 2 28.6%
  • Total voters
    7
lawtonfogle
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nother star in the same galaxy, and as long as line AB does not go through the origin(where the big bang occurred/center of univesrse), then the stars are also moving apart. Let's do the same with a sun and a planet. Same result (not counting the orbits are elipitical, but circle(ar??)). Let's use two building on earth, same results (not counting plate movement).

Now, let us use to atoms. Are the results the same. Yes bond forces might hold them together, yet is not there being more strain the farther we move from the origin. When this strain on the atoms become to strong, will not they break. Even if we use quarks, which have no true distance inbetween (i think) yet still occupy to separate points in 'space'. Will not end the end those bonds break.
 
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Do not worry, I think you simply misunderstand a lot of basic stuff :smile:
Matter will not tear apart due to the expansion of the Universe, that is for sure. :rolleyes:
 
There was some speak years ago about "varying coupling constants", which could be a more precise question.
 
No.

Just read about this in Greene's 'Fabric of the Cosmos'.

Expansion of the universe is easily overcome by gravity and by atomic forces. That's why it only has an effect in the gaps between galaxies, where there's very little gravitational pull.

He likened it to pennies glued to a balloon (in the ever popular balloon = cosmos metaphor). When the balloon inflates, the pennies don't tear apart. The cohesion between the atoms of the pennies (and even the gravitational force between the pennies) is stronger than the penny's attachment to balloon.
 
No,

Dave gave the best reason as to why

marlon
 
DaveC426913 said:
No.

Just read about this in Greene's 'Fabric of the Cosmos'.

Expansion of the universe is easily overcome by gravity and by atomic forces. That's why it only has an effect in the gaps between galaxies, where there's very little gravitational pull.

He likened it to pennies glued to a balloon (in the ever popular balloon = cosmos metaphor). When the balloon inflates, the pennies don't tear apart. The cohesion between the atoms of the pennies (and even the gravitational force between the pennies) is stronger than the penny's attachment to balloon.


Part one, when the balloon became to big, it still popped and the pinnies were thrown everywhere, right. But I don't think the universe will 'pop'.

Part two, let's us have a balloon that will not pop, but get bigger forever. Sooner or later will the force applied on the 'skin' of the balloon where the pinnies are glued start to cause the pennies to come apart. This is hard to envision, because the balloon would have to be (this is just a complete guess) :smile: the size of the sun. In the end, the question is, is there a force strong enough to tear a pennie apart. Yes, there is. The balloon would have to exert that amount of force in the area the pennie is taking up.

When the pennie broke, the pennie would bread into small pieces, but not its atoms. Just like the galaxies, they might bread up, but the solar systems should stay together for a long while longer.

In the end, will not the force applied by the balloon that will not pop become so great, it will rip the molecules of the pennie apart, (again complete guess) :smile: this might take it becoming the size of the known universe, but as long as the balloon will not pop, then will not it happen.
 
The universe is not a balloon. Discussing the dynamics of a popping balloon will only help understanding of the balloon. The effect of expansion of the universe on atoms is weaker than negligible, it is irrelevant. Just work out the velocity between the electron and the nucleus due to universe expansion, using the Hubble constant.
 
i was saying the universe would not pop

and what is the Hubble constant, I am still in 10th grade

and what i want to know is will the force increase until it can matter, even if it does not now.

thank you
 
You sounded more advanced. The relative velocity due to expansion of the universe is proportional to the distance between two objects. (The proportionality constant is called the Hubble constant. This makes Hubble pretty famous since he has a constant and a telescope named for him. ) The particles inside an atom are so close together that their relative velocity completely insignificant.
 
  • #10
yes, i know the distance, but what is the number i will use, or the formula. and yes the distance between atoms is so small it is insignificent, but will the force of expansion keep on building until it is signifince?
 

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