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-   -   Is duality inherent in perception? (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=223159)

octelcogopod Mar20-08 02:35 PM

Is duality inherent in perception?
 
I had a thought about this earlier, and it seems to make sense to me right now but maybe someone else has some input.
The idea is basically that wherever there is perception, there is a duality.
Perception can be any sensory input also.

How are we to examine the thoughts of a person, the content of qualia itself, or anything subjective, since we automatically have to be that person right?
So is duality something that will always exist, no matter how advanced we become, or is there a possibility one could solve this from an objective viewpoint?

If the mere act of being conscious shields your inner life and your subjective side, then there is a mystery in the universe that in theory can never be solved, but how much sense does that make really?

singleton Mar20-08 06:41 PM

What is there to reconcile? Obviously Idealism is the only tenable position :rofl:

I have met people at college who support ideas that there are simply no subjective parts to explain to begin with, nor any thing that is not purely materialistic and can be understood with time. I try to wrap my head around their positions, and every time I think that I come anywhere close I end up more confused and with more questions.

octelcogopod Mar21-08 07:40 AM

singleton,

I am trying to get a viewpoint like that because it seems easier to "solve" but I am in no way closer to being able to explain such a thing.

singleton Mar21-08 10:17 AM

Quote:

Quote by octelcogopod (Post 1656597)
singleton,

I am trying to get a viewpoint like that because it seems easier to "solve" but I am in no way closer to being able to explain such a thing.

And therein lies the rub. If you acknowledge it as problematic you risk being called a mysterian :biggrin:

But hey...that's okay, it's all simply some folk psychology illusions you have to punch through before you are free from such burdens of thought :wink:

Sample1 Mar29-08 07:21 AM

octelcogopod:

You may want to check out the discipline/method/philosophy that is called phenomenology. It's a legit philosophy (though some are thrown off by the name) and it's also one of the more difficult ones to understand, imo, ime. There are a few universities that have courses in it, but not many in the U.S. Anyway, fwiw. Here is a link: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phenomenology/

Don't know if it's exactly what you are seeking but good luck. Oh, and btw, it may drive you mad. :J

Noone Apr3-08 09:42 PM

Quote:

Quote by octelcogopod (Post 1655805)
I had a thought about this earlier, and it seems to make sense to me right now but maybe someone else has some input.
The idea is basically that wherever there is perception, there is a duality.
Perception can be any sensory input also.

How are we to examine the thoughts of a person, the content of qualia itself, or anything subjective, since we automatically have to be that person right?
So is duality something that will always exist, no matter how advanced we become, or is there a possibility one could solve this from an objective viewpoint?

If the mere act of being conscious shields your inner life and your subjective side, then there is a mystery in the universe that in theory can never be solved, but how much sense does that make really?


Only if you control the way how you preceive the perception, before you interact with somthing that would make your self have perception of it..(perception effect's everything ) break your perception of everything , and then you wont be able to understand people, or even anything on the same level as everyone els..

but you asked how :/

Its the concept of if i was that other person would i do and think what they do?

the allways is yes, because you wouldnt be your self, nor would you have know your self, because you would be the other person, and your perception of the world would not be your own, it would be the other person's..

Yes it's a main need, we all must have are own Finite point of view of the infinit point of perception of those finite points of view... but what give's us control is how we tell are self's how to preceive are perception of the point of view of it...

So you could only change your self, into the way how you would really, want to see life, but that dosnt mean thats how other's would see it...

Perception is why the world is in the state that it's in now :/ (hence it effects everything)
And yes there in duality there is allways two side's each side is an extreme, and your conscience act of preceiving your perception would be the mediater of the two..

But each extreme of the duality would have another duality to it(the oppisite of the oppisite perception) but you would allways act as the mediater of them :/ its just a matter of how much control you have over your self.

But mainly it will only have an existance if we say it has one, therefore making it have an existance within are conscience thought of perception :/ eventho it's action will still be there.

Noone Apr3-08 09:56 PM

So yes duality is inherent in perception, inside any act of perception there's duality and each side of duality would have another duality to it. and so on and so on, each side within a duality would be displaying an oppisite extreme that you would be the mediater over... in the case of perception (the oppisite of the oppisite of red, is not red) which make's the difrent way's of perception of one single finite point of view truly infinit :/

So the puzzle can only be solved by seeing it with one fixed point of view that allways has the same perception, which would mean everyone would see it the same way, and not on difrent level's :/ the formula look's like this (F.P.P)of(I.P.P) but this is only half of it, there are 3 more part's which i wont go into right now because they are errelavent to the question you asked :/

Lord Ping Apr7-08 08:03 PM

This sounds rather like the Mary thought experiment. Mary lives in an (artificially constructed) black and white world. Nothing she experiences has colour other than black and white. But she does know everything there is to know about colour perception from books. One day she is allowed outside. Does she gain new knowledge? Knowledge of redness, blueness etc.?

This is generally considered an unresolved question.

Perhaps you're not thinking along these lines at all. In any case, it's still a good idea to check out the Mary literature, as it is a great introduction to the philosophy of phenomenal consciousness.


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