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LitleBang Oct31-09 11:40 PM

Forum Rules
 
If you sign up for a course in say health care and your instructor says you may not question the current thinking on health care. doesn't that make sure the status quo is maintained and no new ideas will be forthcoming unless some well known name decides that a new idea is needed?

Pengwuino Oct31-09 11:54 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
... a few questions. What does this have to do with the forum rules? And what class are you talking about? and what's this about skepticism and debunking?

ideasrule Nov1-09 01:01 AM

Re: Forum Rules
 
If you sign up for a course on health care, meaning you don't know much about it, you should probably wait until you become an expert before coming up with "new ideas".

Integral Nov1-09 01:37 AM

Re: Forum Rules
 
So you think every freshman who steps into a classroom should argue with the prof? Do you think that is where and how science is advanced? This is not a class room, nor is it a academic seminar, it is a public Internet forum. We do not believe that it is possible for real science to be done in this arena. Are we wrong? Maybe, but none of us loss any sleep over that lost chance.

We have worked very hard to create an atmosphere where a physics/math novice can come to get a reliable answer to well posed questions. It takes a lot of time and effort on the part of the mentors to maintian these current "limited" goals.

We do have the IR forum where members can present well posed non mainstream papers.

DaveC426913 Nov1-09 09:17 AM

Re: Forum Rules
 
You'll want to learn where the box is before trying to think outside of it.

FredGarvin Nov1-09 12:22 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
If you don't study history you are doomed to repeat it.

On my more sarcastic side...Do you really think that you have an idea that hasn't been thought of by hundreds of people already?

arildno Nov1-09 12:32 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
Quote:

Quote by LitleBang (Post 2419841)
If you sign up for a course in say health care and your instructor says you may not question the current thinking on health care. doesn't that make sure the status quo is maintained and no new ideas will be forthcoming unless some well known name decides that a new idea is needed?

As long as you:

1. Prove that you actually understand the current theory (NOTE: Tis is not the same as citing tat theory)
AND
2. Are able to pinpoint flaws in that theory,
THEN, but only then, are you entitled to:
3. Describe your "new" theory designed to remedy the flaw in question.

As long as 1&2 are lacking, you and your no. 3 are.....dismissable.

jreelawg Nov1-09 01:56 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
One physics teacher once explained to me that she went into physics with dreams of thinking up new theories and bringing forth new ideas. It turned out for her that it wasn't as easy coming up with a theory in physics as she hoped, and even if you do come up with a good theory, it isn't very easy to get anyone to pay attention to it.

russ_watters Nov1-09 04:43 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
I even had a history teacher in high school tell the class that we weren't allowed to express original thoughts in our term papers (every idea must be sourced from a scholarly paper)! He said until we got to our phd thesis in history, we didn't understand the subject matter well enough to provide any original insight. And even if we did get lucky and have a good insight, it couldn't possibly be original - someone must have already thought it.

The nerve!

[he was right!]

LitleBang Nov1-09 05:09 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
The establishment says don't ask embarrassing questions, like, what is charge, what causes charge, why is it there, how do you explain the charge on the proton with quarks yet can give no explanation for the charge of the electron. What causes gravity, the mechanism of gravity. What is inertia, it's mechanism. Of course the establishment can give what they consider to be the accepted answers but shame on anyone who offers an answer in an attempt to explain one of these.

Moonbear Nov1-09 05:17 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
Quote:

Quote by LitleBang (Post 2419841)
If you sign up for a course in say health care and your instructor says you may not question the current thinking on health care. doesn't that make sure the status quo is maintained and no new ideas will be forthcoming unless some well known name decides that a new idea is needed?

Why would you think that? Generally, if you're learning a subject in a course, it's because you still need someone to lead you through the basics. Once you've mastered the subject and have exhausted the available courses on it, then you are armed with the information needed to start delving into your own research into new ideas.

I'm guessing if you're asking this, you're still either taking high school or undergraduate courses, since grad students are already familiar with this process. Generally, through the undergraduate level, courses are not comprehensive, but rather survey a topic. Details may be greatly oversimplified or entirely left out because you need to build knowledge gradually in layers. If you have questions that have not been answered in the course, rather than questioning the subject matter, you should probably first question how limited your knowledge of the subject is and inquire if there is an answer to your question already in existence. This is a good use of office hours if you are curious about learning more about a subject that just what can be taught in class.

Pengwuino Nov1-09 05:28 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
If some random person came up to your door one day and started telling you how to run your life, how to eat properly, how to raise your kids, etc etc, what would you think?

That's essentially how nonsense like this works. Someone who doesn't know better thinks they can come in, without any expertise, and start demanding to be taken seriously. Why would you take a random person who comes up to you telling you how to live your life seriously? Similarly, why would the "establishment", whatever that is, take anyone seriously who doesn't present ideas that dont follow some basic tenets?

Mark44 Nov1-09 07:07 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
Quote:

Quote by LitleBang (Post 2420885)
The establishment says don't ask embarrassing questions, like, what is charge, what causes charge, why is it there, how do you explain the charge on the proton with quarks yet can give no explanation for the charge of the electron. What causes gravity, the mechanism of gravity. What is inertia, it's mechanism. Of course the establishment can give what they consider to be the accepted answers but shame on anyone who offers an answer in an attempt to explain one of these.

I disagree with your opinion that the "establishment" doesn't want you to ask embarrassing questions. We have a pretty fair understanding of some of the things you mention, but not so much in others. For example, inertia's effect is pretty well explained by Newton's first law of motion, but if your question is "why does it work this way," then you're asking why the universe behave this way, and that's something we don't know and probably never will.

We have some theories about why gravity works, one of which explains it by mass warping the texture of space in the neighborhood of the massive object. Again, if your question is how did this come to be, that's more of a philosophical question that we might never be able to answer.

Scientists observe events and try to discover the physical laws that explain why the event occurs. When a new law of physics is discovered, the scientific method allows other people to start with the same set of initial conditions, and reach an identical conclusion. As more and more people are able to repeat a given experiment over time, that gives credence to the interpretation of events. In a sense, that is the establishment.

arildno Nov1-09 07:21 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
LittleBang:

Many of your questions are of the form:
"Why is the universe this way, rather than that way?".

In effect, you are asking for the ontological NECESSITY of the physical laws we have observed, i.e, that any other set of physical laws would be self-contradictory.

It might be that far, far off in the future, we might be able to answer that question, but physicists of today are struggling with understanding wat laws we actually DO have, or MIGHT have, and that will be the case for generations to come.

DaveC426913 Nov1-09 08:11 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
Quote:

Quote by LitleBang (Post 2420885)
The establishment says don't ask embarrassing questions
...
Of course the establishment can give what they consider to be the accepted answers but shame on anyone who offers an answer in an attempt to explain one of these.

Posted in the wrong forum.

Please move this post to the Conspiracy Theories forum.

russ_watters Nov1-09 08:48 PM

Re: Forum Rules
 
Quote:

Quote by LitleBang (Post 2420885)
The establishment says don't ask embarrassing questions, like, what is charge, what causes charge, why is it there, how do you explain the charge on the proton with quarks yet can give no explanation for the charge of the electron. What causes gravity, the mechanism of gravity. What is inertia, it's mechanism. Of course the establishment can give what they consider to be the accepted answers but shame on anyone who offers an answer in an attempt to explain one of these.

Asking questions and "questioning" are two different things. You can ask questions, but at your level you can't "question". If you don't like it, tough. Part of maturing is accepting your ignorance - learning not to be arrogant in thinking you already know more than the sum total of all the scientists in history! When you ask a question and get a "we don't know yet" answer, you have to accept it until you are educated enough to start exploring the answer yourself.

DanP Nov2-09 05:43 AM

Re: Forum Rules
 
Quote:

Quote by russ_watters (Post 2420833)
I even had a history teacher in high school tell the class that we weren't allowed to express original thoughts in our term papers (every idea must be sourced from a scholarly paper)! He said until we got to our phd thesis in history, we didn't understand the subject matter well enough to provide any original insight. And even if we did get lucky and have a good insight, it couldn't possibly be original - someone must have already thought it.

The nerve!

[he was right!]


Didn't F. Crick discovered the structure of DNA in 1953 with Watson, while he didnt had yet defended his PhD thesis ? I believe he did so only in 1954. Besides, they beat L. Pauling to it, which says a lot.

I believe Chargaff summed it up pretty well, from a certain point of view: " ... that such pygmies should cast such giant shadows only shows how late in the day it is". This reference as pygmies to Watson and Crick ... it only shows Chargaff was never able to come to terms with their success, the success of 2 man which he considered way too low in their accomplishments to succeed anything.

It only takes one example to refute the theories of your teacher.

arildno Nov2-09 06:09 AM

Re: Forum Rules
 
Yawn.

BOTH Crick&Watson were very much "establishment thinkers", rather than "renegade thinkers" at the time when they proposed the DNA model.

Russ Watters' history teacher made only a slight exaggeration, nothing more..


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