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-   -   Brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when (http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=410611)

LiveTrue Jun16-10 04:54 PM

brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Connecting the blood supply and other organs are already completely possible. It is also possible to keep the brain alive for hours outside the body.

Remaining concern is the spine and the 12(x2) nerves which connect to either side of the brain. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cranial_nerves

The largest one of them all is the spine, the spine has 46 tracts

I have read that people do forearm transplants and regain full nerve function (after 5 months), the brain works more like USB, but this is only months after, and our nerve reconnection technology, at least that used in practice is not that advanced to perfect it yet, in fact it's merely in it's stone age, yet it is taking huge steps as far as the articles i've read. Although many new improvements are being made every few months.

Then there's organ printers, which could perhaps be used to scan a cross section of your spine and that of the donor (skydiver/ a body grown in an artificial womb), then ask the computer to grow a model that connects the nerves accurately so that you could go home the same day with full function. Harvard med head says that spinal cord nerves could be grown and even made completely genetically yours, within 10 years from now already, don't know how the printer will connect the nerves together though, however it happens naturally so we should be able to mimic it somehow, do we already know how?

i am posting this because i think that if it were to be made feasible, that it would show t be the absolute greatest invention and benefit to man kind that had ever or even will ever be done. As this would grant us immortality and a quick cure to all diseases, aging and much more. Not only this but it would be of astronomical benefit to the economy and progress too.

discuss :)

Evo Jun16-10 05:12 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by LiveTrue (Post 2764354)
i am posting this because i think that if it were to be made feasible, that it would show t be the absolute greatest invention and benefit to man kind that had ever or even will ever be done. As this would grant us immortality and a quick cure to all diseases, aging and much more. Not only this but it would be of astronomical benefit to the economy and progress too.

discuss :)

No, it would only buy you a bit more time if your body was malfunctioning. Don't forget, your brain will still grow old and die even if it was possible to put it in a new body.

LiveTrue Jun16-10 05:25 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by Evo (Post 2764378)
No, it would only buy you a bit more time if your body was malfunctioning. Don't forget, your brain will still grow old and die even if it was possible to put it in a new body.

an extra 80 years is quite a 'bit' of time. even so, the body is there to help the brain repair itself too, provide a new body and the brain would indeed have more time to fix itself. Or this would buy us plenty time to at least get the neuroscientists and geneticists to figure out new drugs to focus on reversing brain aging, as now there is a much narrower focus needed there too. Recent studies show that the brain of the worlds oldest lady was pretty much the exact same as that of one in the late 30s. So no brain aging is not first on the priotity list ATM, we will figure that one out in due time, even if we don't perhaps already have the know-how provided the body could allow the brain to stay fresh and well kept up too.

Evo Jun16-10 06:03 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by LiveTrue (Post 2764395)
an extra 80 years is quite a 'bit' of time. even so, the body is there to help the brain repair itself too, provide a new body and the brain would indeed have more time to fix itself. Or this would buy us plenty time to at least get the neuroscientists and geneticists to figure out new drugs to focus on reversing brain aging, as now there is a much narrower focus needed there too. Recent studies show that the brain of the worlds oldest lady was pretty much the exact same as that of one in the late 30s. So no brain aging is not first on the priotity list ATM, we will figure that one out in due time, even if we don't perhaps already have the know-how provided the body could allow the brain to stay fresh and well kept up too.

You might only get a few days, if anything. Once the brain goes, you're dead. Ever hear of things like a brain aneurysm, stroke, dementia? Do you have any idea of how many diseases of the brain there are?

So, a brain transplant is pretty silly to get excited about if you are thinking this is going to significantly prevent dying within a normal lifespan. We are a LONG way off from resolving issues with the brain. That would be the sensible path to follow.

Quote:

Recent studies show that the brain of the worlds oldest lady was pretty much the exact same as that of one in the late 30s.
Also, this is a science forum, you need to link to the valid scientific research that backs up any claim you've made. So, please supply links. Thanks.

This thread is also in violation of our guidelines on overly speculative posts. I am only allowing it so that people can point out the issues.

LiveTrue Jun16-10 06:11 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
http://www.nytimes.com/1982/06/18/us...e-s-brain.html(brain-transplant done in mice, brain links itself up)

http://web.mit.edu/lms/www/PDFpapers/000630whitaker.pdf
(could be grown in scaffolds, although i don't know to what extent, however it is possible)

LiveTrue Jun16-10 06:30 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by Evo (Post 2764454)
You might only get a few days, if anything. Once the brain goes, you're dead. Ever hear of things like a brain aneurysm, stroke, dementia? Do you have any idea of how many diseases of the brain there are?

So, a brain transplant is pretty silly to get excited about if you are thinking this is going to significantly prevent dying within a normal lifespan. We are a LONG way off from resolving issues with the brain. That would be the sensible path to follow.

Days, where did you get 'days' from? no, plenty decades. i will provide the studies on those centurions.

And yes, those conditions are pretty rare, and usually due to the body not being able to support it or simply a bad diet. aneurysms are also solvable, just as many other brain diseases too. say we do have the brain diseases left as our last troubles, they would really be a great deal less to look at than the entire body as a whole. we would get 99% of the pie done, the other 1% could then receive far more attention.

And yes, the brain does rejuvante itself in a new body, and a new body would help to preserve it much longer too:
Quote:

Neurogenesis is known to take place in the adult brain. This work identifies T lymphocytes and microglia as being important to the maintenance of hippocampal neurogenesis and spatial learning abilities in adulthood. Hippocampal neurogenesis induced by an enriched environment was associated with the recruitment of T cells and the activation of microglia. In immune-deficient mice, hippocampal neurogenesis was markedly impaired and could not be enhanced by environmental enrichment, but was restored and boosted by T cells recognizing a specific CNS antigen. CNS-specific T cells were also found to be required for spatial learning and memory and for the expression of brain-derived neurotrophic factor in the dentate gyrus, implying that a common immune-associated mechanism underlies different aspects of hippocampal plasticity and cell renewal in the adult brain.
http://www.nature.com/neuro/journal/...bs/nn1629.html via:http://www.futurepundit.com/archives/003244.html there are more studies done, i could mention half a dozen, all singing along the same lines, will get to them too
Quote:

Also, this is a science forum, you need to link to the valid scientific research that backs up any claim you've made. So, please supply links. Thanks.
absolutely, i will, thanks for the coffee. just past midnight atm where i live. (will post in the morning:))

Quote:

This thread is also in violation of our guidelines on overly speculative posts. I am only allowing it so that people can point out the issues.
disagree stongly, no university has declared this as impossible and much research has been done on the topic. Brain-transplants have already been done in mice, dogs and arangutangs among other primates too. however complete brain-transplant with nerves too would be the concern here.

Evo Jun16-10 06:59 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
These have nothing to do with brain transplants.

LiveTrue Jun16-10 07:11 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by Evo (Post 2764524)
These have nothing to do with brain transplants.

yes the article doesn't address the matter, howeever it proves that the processes of the body helps to rejuvenate and clean the brain. This is relevant as to where a new young body is provided upon transplant. thus the new body will help the brain take care and rejuvenate itself better.

apeiron Jun16-10 07:49 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
I wrote about a neuroscientist who has been preparing for the first "brain" transplant for many years. Actually it was a whole head transplant he planned. He had already practiced on a baboon if I remember right. I will post the details when I get home.

Evo Jun16-10 08:43 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by apeiron (Post 2764573)
I wrote about a neuroscientist who has been preparing for the first "brain" transplant for many years. Actually it was a whole head transplant he planned. He had already practiced on a baboon if I remember right. I will post the details when I get home.

Are you referring to White?

apeiron Jun17-10 12:53 AM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by Evo (Post 2764624)
Are you referring to White?

Correct....

Quote:

Fancy a bit of extreme surgery? Then what about a head transplant? You've got a patient whose body is riddled with cancer or wasting away with a degenerative disease. There's also a suitable donor down at the local head trauma unit. So snip, snip; stitch, stitch - problem solved. Old head, new body!

For several decades, Robert J White, a professor of neurosurgery at Case Western Reserve University, Cleveland, Ohio, has been the man most likely to give this history-making operation a go. He has openly talked about it as an option for the likes of quadriplegic Superman actor, Christopher Reeves, or amyotrophic lateral sclerosis sufferer, Stephen Hawking. And he has the skills.

White pioneered many surgical techniques including extracorporeal hypothermic perfusion where brains are chilled to 10 degrees Celsius to allow blood flow to be interrupted for up to an hour. But he became famous - notorious in vivisection circles - for his experiments in the 1970s in which he transplanted the heads of rhesus monkeys. It took a team of thirty doctors, nurses and technicians. Chalk marks on the floor were used to choreograph the procedure beforehand. After a monkey eventually survived the 18 hour operation, a cheer went up when it immediately bite the finger of the nearest assistant.

Of course, White's monkeys were left paralysed from the neck down. There was no chance of knitting together the sectioned spinal cords and so it was mostly a technical exercise in swapping over blood supplies and sewing muscles. Immuno-rejection and other complications also meant that none of the animals lasted more than nine days. But in the early 1990s, White began to prepare for a similar operation on a human. He went down to the mortuary to practice on cadavers. His procedure involved cutting through the neck at the fourth vertebra, dissecting out blood vessels and exposing the spinal cord. Metal plates would be used to mate the two halves. First the carotids and jugulars would be connected, then if all went well, the vertebral arteries. As a fall back, White had his brain cooling equipment to buy extra time during the switching of blood supplies. His main concern, he said, was not the operation itself but handling tissue-rejection afterwards.

White had a medical rationale for the procedure. He admitted the patient would end up a "head on a pillow", paralysed and with no longer even the breath control to speak. The donor body would have to be ventilated and drip-fed. Yet a terminally-ill cancer sufferer or a quadriplegic with multi-organ failure might take this extreme option - at least they would still be able to watch Oprah on the TV or listen to Mozart, White commented. He indicated the only thing really holding him back was the need to raise several million dollars to pay for the operation. White was not so concerned about the blessing of hospital authorities as he had colleagues in Kiev and elsewhere eager to take part in this ground-breaking neurosurgery.

Well, the years have come and gone and it hasn't happened yet. White is nearing 80 and long-retired. However, while it is unlikely he will now ever wield the knife himself, his associates could still spring a surprise on us one of these days.

It does make one wonder what the future has in store. Some think head transplants will become routine just as soon as can also manage spinal cord regeneration. Who could object if we knew how to join the two halves properly? But this seems a pipe dream. There is no reason to expect that the spinal tract of one body could ever form a functional connection with another. Even with intensive physiotherapy to retrain the brain's somatosensory organisation, a patient would likely remain just a spastic twitch or two better off than paralysed. Without a functional connection there is also the obvious problem of the survival of a decapitated body. Once cut-off from the brain-end of its autonomic, endocrine, immune, and who knows what other control systems, just how long could a torso survive?

Perhaps a transplant of a patient's entire CNS - brain and spinal cord - might work. But if society really has the stomach for this kind of surgical intervention, then why not go the whole hog and simply hook up a severed head to a bionic life support machine? Dump the donor body with all its own medical complications and just clamp a head to a rack of blood pumps, oxygenating and feeding equipment, a dialysis unit, and other necessary kit. These days you could disguise the machinery in a latex prosthetic body and stick the whole lot in a motorised wheel chair. Well, what's to stop the really ambitious neurosurgeon? Apart from the raising the cash?

berkeman Jun17-10 01:41 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
apeiron, please post a link to the text you pasted into your post above, so it is not in violation of copyright. Thank you.

apeiron Jun17-10 03:38 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by berkeman (Post 2765440)
apeiron, please post a link to the text you pasted into your post above, so it is not in violation of copyright. Thank you.

It is from My Docs. I wrote it. :smile:

Evo Jun17-10 04:19 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by apeiron (Post 2765569)
It is from My Docs. I wrote it. :smile:

Very niece piece apeiron.

LiveTrue Jun18-10 05:25 AM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Well the cash is certainly not a problem. What would people pay for a home these days? A body is worth far more than a home would be, in fact infinitesimally more. http://www.longevitymeme.org/article...m?article_id=9

The cost of raising a child to age 17 is now $300k, then there is the university and the near infinite specilised skills and education that that child will develop after this too, all of this goes completely wasted when a person dies, that's libraries burned. It would certainly add millions for every person who lives longer.

A heart transplant costs around 100k and only buys you 20 odd extra years.

Another thing to note is that the more this procedure would be done, the better the technique and eventually the cost will become more affordable too. even so, it would certainly be a very small fraction of what that particular person could offer in return again in the future. Especially so if the person receiving the procedure had been a neurosurgeon. Meaning just on the first step of the ladder we would have already bought the entire ladder and then some too.

It will repay itself in no time and add a great deal back too. People will regain what is most important too.

Cost, even if it was a million dollars, is not of any concern here. It will both far out pay itself and the value is infinite too.

apeiron Jun18-10 06:36 AM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
No, cash really was the problem for White. He said he wouldn't be allowed to do it in the US, but Kiev was willing (if he had the money). And I had no reason to disbelieve him.

LiveTrue Jun18-10 10:53 AM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Quote:

Quote by apeiron (Post 2766316)
No, cash really was the problem for White. He said he wouldn't be allowed to do it in the US, but Kiev was willing (if he had the money). And I had no reason to disbelieve him.

Well yes about white, but i was not referring to White, i was referring to the procedure in general and if it had gone mass market like say the heart transplant has gone.

Also have noted that Chris Barnhard was also very keen on the brain transplant. will post those articles the second i get time :)

White was certainly not the only one, there have been plenty others too, and these experiments have been done in mice, dogs, and other primates too
: interviews with Robert J. White http://forgetomori.com/2009/science/...ephen-hawking/
Other head transplantations:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head_transplant

maybryan Dec15-10 03:21 PM

Re: brain transplant (Whole-body transplant ), feasibility, how and estimates when
 
Thank you LiveTrue for this post!

It CAN be done and it WILL be done. It is all a matter of time.

Most of the posts i have read on this thread are simply excuses as to why not to do it or why it could not be done instead of focusing on the exact steps necessary of HOW it will be done.

So HOW will it be done? ...well, LETS FOCUS ON WHAT IS STOPPING US and see if we can OVERCOME it...

1. moral issue - this is really just an emotional excuse and has no validity as to whether or not is is able to be completed. lets think objectively here for a minute and take emotions out of it...just for a short while anyway while we prove how it can be done...then we can always return to a state of moral and emotional happiness. It seems most of the posts in response to LiveTrue's original post have some degree of this attached...all I am asking here is to temporarily remove this mindset please.

2. cost - lack of capital - give me a break. someone WILL fund it if presented in the correct way. talk to a billionaire if you need millions. So White couldn't find the funding. does that mean that YOU cannot? this is merely an excuse and focusing on it will deter us from the solution of actually doing it. again...all I am asking here is to temporarily remove this mindset please and replace it with a mindset of doing whatever it takes to complete the task.



3. full nerve connection + recovery - seems to be the biggest issue (and only issue IMO). lets tackle this! Its been successfully done before in mice/pigs/primates/what have you - but HEY - I want full functionality of my new body!...what SPECIFICALLY is it going to take?! lets dig deeper here. This seems to be the only TRUE issue, therefore I am asking rest of people on this forum to specifically focus on THIS SOLUTION.
WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE HERE FOR COMPLETE SUCCESS?

this is a science forum, correct? (not a religious/moral or financial forum) lets focus on the scientific solution. we can do it. we will do it. it is only a matter of time.


Lastly, is not one person going to challenge the fact that this has already been done behind closed government doors and just not publicized yet?!

I say it HAS.



...apologize to all if you find my post offensive. I truly respect everyones opinion who has posted before me.

I really just simply see it from a SUCCESS prospective and doing whatever it takes to get it done versus a failure prospective of why it cannot be done.

we CAN
we WILL
we MUST!

failure is not an option. period.

what would you do if you knew that you could not fail?...how do we make this our reality here?




...so the questions at hand...

- HOW DO WE FULLY CONNECT THE NERVES?
- can we have a prepatory step where the patient grows a grafted piece of the new spinal column for a few months/years directly to the back of the head? (i can wear long hair/hat for a while to cover it up if it meant getting a new body!)...just an idea.

- ARE THERE HORMONES/MEDICATION THAT CAN STIMULATE/HELP US COMPLETE THIS?

- WHAT IS RECOVERY TIME? (its okay if 12 years, at least we have a baseline to work with)

- HOW DO WE GET FULL 100% FUNTIONALITY OF ALL BODILY FUNCTIONS BACK? (lets not short change ourselves here)


any links on this in-depth research already published (or not) that I can read?


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