Does the Lamb Shift Suggest Variability in Electron Mass Within Atoms?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of the Lamb shift on the variability of electron mass within atoms. Participants explore the relationship between energy levels, electron mass, and concepts from quantum electrodynamics (QED), focusing on theoretical interpretations and implications for particle physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the Lamb shift indicates a change in electron mass due to its relationship with energy levels within an atom.
  • Others argue that the electron mass is known to vary even in fine structure, citing relativistic effects and the role of spin-orbit coupling in the hydrogen atom.
  • A participant explains that the Lamb shift is attributed to radiative corrections and the self-energy of the electron, involving vacuum polarization and its effect on interaction energy.
  • There is mention of the position dependence of the electron's charge, which is influenced by the dielectric constant of the vacuum, suggesting that this constant is not truly constant at very close distances.
  • Some participants introduce the concept of "bare mass" and discuss the distinction between "screened" and "bare" charge in the context of effective charge screening.
  • One participant emphasizes the equivalence of energy and mass, providing an analogy with a compressed spring to illustrate this relationship.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on whether the Lamb shift implies variability in electron mass. While some support the idea of mass variation, others focus on established concepts in quantum mechanics and relativistic effects, leading to an unresolved discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference complex concepts such as vacuum polarization, the dielectric constant of the vacuum, and relativistic effects, which may depend on specific definitions and assumptions that are not fully explored in the discussion.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those studying quantum mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, or the foundational concepts of mass and energy in physics.

elas
Lamb shift proved that within an atom the energy level of electrons changes with changes in orbital position. Given that energy and mass are related (or “one and the same” according to some texts) does this mean that within an atom electron mass varies? And if so does this not contradict particle physics teaching that states the electron is the one unchanging particle?
I am confused.
 
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elas said:
Lamb shift proved that within an atom the energy level of electrons changes with changes in orbital position. Given that energy and mass are related (or “one and the same” according to some texts) does this mean that within an atom electron mass varies? ...

Elas, forget Lamb shift for a second. The electron mass is known to change even in fine structure. Fine structure splitting is known to be a relativistic effect. In the hydrogen atom for example Dirac was the first to do a relativistic treatment.
The major contribution to the Hamiltonian is mainly due to the spin-orbit coupling. However, there is an added contribution to the atomic energy due to the variation of the electron's mass with velocity:
H(rel) =[tex]\frac{p^4}{8mc^2}[/tex] (I think that's correct value.)

This shift occurs at both fine structure levels by the same amount and so doesn't affect the splitting.

Lamb shift on the other hand is attributable to what is called a 'radiative correction' or the self energy of the electron. It indicates the radiative coupling of the electron to the vacuum field. In QED the electron field causes a polarization of the vacuum, altering the interaction energy slightly.
It's really a measure of the electrostatic polarizability of the virtual vacuum fluctuations.


You bring up an interesting point about the electron's position dependence. However, it is the vacuum polarization that causes the charge, actually the charge to epsilon ratio (actually [tex]\frac{q}{\sqrt\epsilon_0}[/tex]), to be position dependent, increasing from its 'normal' value but only at very close interparticle separations (below the electron's Compton wavelength).
In actuality it is [tex]\epsilon_0[/tex], the dielectric 'constant' of the vacuum, that is not constant afterall. At close distances its value is altered by the polarized virtual particles surrounding the electron.
It is usually more practical to speak of the position dependence of the alpha structure constant, since it also varies with [tex]\epsilon_0[/tex]. :biggrin:

Sometimes due to the effective screening of the charge the difference is referred to as 'screened' charge vs. 'bare' charge.
Hope that helps.

Creator :smile:

(Modified to include Latex correction).
 
Last edited:
Creator said:
Sometimes due to the effective screening of the charge the difference is referred to as 'screened' charge vs. 'bare' charge.
Hope that helps.
Creator :smile:
Perhaps it is worth mentioning that there is also the concept of "bare mass".
 
Many thanks, this is a detailed reply that I can study and use. It is replies of this quality that enable me to determine whether my way out ideas are right or wrong and that means making progress even if only by eliminating a wrong idea. Fortunately this time it confirms a right idea, if only that were always the case!.
 
elas said:
Many thanks, this is a detailed reply that I can study and use. It is replies of this quality that enable me to determine whether my way out ideas are right or wrong and that means making progress even if only by eliminating a wrong idea. Fortunately this time it confirms a right idea, if only that were always the case!.

No problem; glad it was helpful.
Creator
 
Elas,

A final note on energy and mass to compliemnt the many fine posts..

Energy and mass really are completely equivalent. If you compress
a spring, the potential energy of the compression will manifest itself as an
equivalent mass. That is, a squeezed spring is a tiny tiny bit heavier than
a not-squeezed one! This means strict conservation of energy is more
general than the classical conservation of mass.
 

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