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Old Aug31-04, 10:09 AM       Last edited by sol2; Aug31-04 at 12:05 PM..            #12
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Originally Posted by Chronos
hmm, dejavu
Please enlighten

As we have moved to predefine measures, I thought it important for myself to look at historical information that might help me see this evolution as it came about that quantum gravity, would recogize planck values as a limit from which such geometry might emerge.

A history of the Planck values provides interesting material for reflections on timely and premature discoveries in the history of science. Today, the Planck values are more a part of physics itself than of its history. They are mentioned in connection with the cosmology of the early universe as well as in connection with particle physics. In considering certain problems associated with a unified theory (including the question of the stability of the proton), theorists discovered a characteristic mass ~ 1016mp (mpis the proton mass). To ground such a great value, one first refers to the still greater mass 1019mp. In the words of Steven Weinberg:

This is known as the Planck mass, after Max Planck, who noted in 1900 that some such mass would appear naturally in any attempt to combine his quantum theory with the theory of gravitation. The Planck mass is roughly the energy at which the gravitational force between particles becomes stronger than the electroweak or the strong forces. In order to avoid an inconsistency between quantum mechanics and general relativity, some new features must enter physics at some energy at or below 1019 proton masses. (Weinberg 1981, p. 71).

The fact that Weinberg takes such liberties with history in this quotation is evidence of the need to describe the real historical circumstances in which the Planck mass arose. As we saw, when Planck introduced the mass (ch/G)1/2 (~ 1019mp) in 1899, he did not intend to combine the theory of gravitation with quantum theory; he did not even suppose that his new constant would result in a new physical theory. The first "attempt to combine the quantum theory with the theory of gravitation," which demonstrated that "in order to avoid an inconsistency between quantum mechanics and general relativity, some new features must enter physics," was made by Bronstein in 1935. That the Planck mass may be regarded as a quantum-gravitational scale was pointed out explicitly by Klein and Wheeler twenty years later. At the same time, Landau also noted that the Planck energy (mass) corresponds to an equality of gravitational and electromagnetic interactions.

Theoretical physicists are now confident that the role of the Planck values in quantum gravity, cosmology, and elementary particle theory will emerge from a unified theory of all fundamental interactions and that the Planck scales characterize the region in which the intensities of all fundamental interactions become comparable. If these expectations come true, the present report might become useful as the historical introduction for the book that it is currently impossible to write, The Small-Scale Structure of Space-Time.

http://people.bu.edu/gorelik/cGh_Fir...eps92_text.htm

and so it stands as of 25August.
Originally Posted by Marcus
I want to say that for me the thread raises issues (about talent, literary impulses, humaneness, intellectual integrity, open fora) which one does tend to want to think long and hard about. And I have arrived at no answers---the questions are hard ones. We are what we are, we have to treat each other with kindness and respect, what shall we do with us? Contrary to what one might expect, we represent certain talents and abilities (not always the conventional or expected ones but nevertheless to be considered). And besides this it's funny.
You know what I find strange, that to medallionize even the experts, I have found limitations in their views? This is not said out of disrespect, but to point out, some are not very familiarized with one sector, specializing in another?

It is funny to the degree that such specialization could have walked around pround as peacocks displaying all their regalia, and not understand what they are talking about in other areas. So this going for the gold, might have been retrogressively placed badges of honor where they have mistakenly and proundly done so, from good intentions, albeit damaging to a proud tradition of specialization





Although this historical context might have found some of us entrenched in this past, this does not mean pre-concieve summations should limit it to being so. So I have a challenge I guess, amidst such summations. :sad: :rainbow:

The struggle to free ourselves from background structures began long before Einstein developed general relativity, and is still not complete. The conflict between Ptolemaic and Copernican cosmologies, the dispute between Newton and Leibniz concerning absolute and relative motion, and the modern arguments concerning the `problem of time' in quantum gravity -- all are but chapters in the story of this struggle. I do not have room to sketch this story here, nor even to make more precise the all-important notion of `geometrical structure'. I can only point the reader towards the literature, starting perhaps with the books by Barbour [9] and Earman [15], various papers by Rovelli [25,26,27], and the many references therein.

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/planck/node2.html
Of course John Baez goes on to say.....

String theory has not gone far in this direction. This theory is usually formulated with the help of a metric on spacetime, which is treated as a background structure rather than a local degree of freedom like the rest. Most string theorists recognize that this is an unsatisfactory situation, and by now many are struggling towards a background-free formulation of the theory. However, in the words of two experts [18], ``it seems that a still more radical departure from conventional ideas about space and time may be required in order to arrive at a truly background independent formulation.''

http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/planck/node2.html
So indeed the process has become "easily solved, or the beauty of simplicity" for some to sit back in the rocking chair and take a wonderous view of what we had been given to think about. So what "wisdom of the grand fathers" is to be implored here, to say that all the models of consideration might have worked to a safe and solvent ground of deduction?

As these grandfathers sit on the porch and gaze to the past, what memories retained help then to put forth a systemic approach that the younger generation, might be endowed with procedures to follow? So we have this comlex organzation structures that must preceed from some basis and given the units of constant in planck length what do we find?

That the visions of the grandfathers have taken us back to the very origins of our universe? What vision had we been imparted then of this grandiose view of the cosmos?

Hermeneutics of Quantum Gravity

There are many natural scientists, and especially physicists, who continue to reject the notion that the disciplines concerned with social and cultural criticism can have anything to contribute, except perhaps peripherally, to their research. Still less are they receptive to the idea that the very foundations of their worldview must be revised or rebuilt in the light of such criticism. Rather, they cling to the dogma imposed by the long post-Enlightenment hegemony over the Western intellectual outlook, which can be summarized briefly as follows: that there exists an external world, whose properties are independent of any individual human being and indeed of humanity as a whole; that these properties are encoded in ``eternal'' physical laws; and that human beings can obtain reliable, albeit imperfect and tentative, knowledge of these laws by hewing to the ``objective'' procedures and epistemological strictures prescribed by the (so-called) scientific method.

http://www.physics.nyu.edu/faculty/s...sgress_v2.html

Have we gone so far off the deep end then that we shall find Sokal pointing out the defiencies of what dogmas are long held too, and those not? Who is really safe, to think that as a free thinkers, they shall be open for the challenge? Maybe as flexible to undertand that the points of deprture will have told us something about the limits of perception, that today, given our theoretical models, we have a new direction from summation, that helps to point Smolin/Baez in the direction they choose to go. Or those like Lubos, Urs ,Arvin in the direction they choose to go?

So here we sit, and amongst the toddlers that patiently wait for direction from the grandfathers, we find the stories intriguing, but none the less, the visions imparted and story told, quickly brings reality back to what sits on the horizon for the new generation. Will they warm to the romance a generation brought and find the "new, strangely comforting? It is easily disgarded for some and others, more intriguely captured souls.
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