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Modern witch hunts

by Andre
Tags: hunts, modern, witch
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Andre
#1
Nov23-06, 10:20 AM
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It may be known that I like to discuss in detail why the climate issues as in catastrophical anthropogenic global warming is greatly exagarated.

It may seem that such a discussion can be conducted in a normal neutral setting, however look at this blog and think again.

I wonder what the reaction would be on my post there.
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theCandyman
#2
Nov23-06, 10:34 AM
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There's too much for me to read right now, but I think I can gather what kind of people are discussing it from that first comment.
selfAdjoint
#3
Nov23-06, 10:59 AM
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So people all across the spectrum have opinions and express them in blogs. Andre, is there any blog at the other end of the spectrum that you think is over the top? Why not bestir yourself and give us a link to it, too?

Andre
#4
Nov23-06, 11:23 AM
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Modern witch hunts

Quote Quote by selfAdjoint View Post
So people all across the spectrum have opinions and express them in blogs. Andre, is there any blog at the other end of the spectrum that you think is over the top? Why not bestir yourself and give us a link to it, too?
A sceptic blog over the top would mean that we'd have to find one, devoted to personal attacks (ad hominems) on the prominent alarmists like Micheal Mann, Jonathan Overpeck, Kevin Trenberth, Jim Hansen et al, for instance about the grants they make or about the sense of power of the high priests and medicine men, preaching doom unless the people make offerings to avoid those (see the commonality?)

However that doesn't happen a lot, you cannot command from an underdog position of being demonized. The most "radical" sceptic sites that I know of, both not being always exactly accurate (only most of the time) are those two of late John Daly, managed by his son now and Eduardo Ferreira.

http://www.john-daly.com/
http://mitosyfraudes.8k.com/ENGLISH.html

Actually it may be an idea to compare the fallacy density of the extremists of both sides.
Andre
#5
Nov23-06, 11:57 AM
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Anyway, when confronted with such a blog as in the openings post, I can't help to think about preconceptual science:



Disclaimer: any resemblance with hockeystick creating science is unintentional and purely coincidal

Source: http://www.gocomics.com/nonsequitur/index.phtml
inol
#6
Nov23-06, 02:43 PM
P: 7
Not the only science issue where this happens.

This is particularly rant filled, especially the updates. I guess the guy might have had a bad week or something...
http://www.pkblogs.com/abstractfacto...sign-that.html
Ivan Seeking
#7
Nov23-06, 03:32 PM
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Andre, how many times you have accused large numbers of climate scientists of complicity in some grand conspiracy?
Andre
#8
Nov23-06, 04:01 PM
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Did I?

Anyway, shall we try and deduct who may have been the mysterious E-mail writer to David Deming?

A major person working in the area of climate change and global warming sent me an astonishing email that said "We have to get rid of the Medieval Warm Period."
marlon
#9
Nov23-06, 04:10 PM
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Pfff, do we actually need to care about this ?

marlon
Andre
#10
Nov23-06, 04:20 PM
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Quote Quote by marlon View Post
Pfff, do we actually need to care about this ?

marlon
Absoluut, je kan maar niet zo zonder meer ongestraft de wereld op z'n kop zetten. dat wreekt zich zeer zeker.

translation: yes, definitely
inol
#11
Nov23-06, 06:03 PM
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Quote Quote by Andre View Post
Did I?

Anyway, shall we try and deduct who may have been the mysterious E-mail writer to David Deming?
I have serious reason to doubt that particular claim. If it were true what is the motive for not releasing both the email and the name of the person who sent it?

There are three possibilities

a) there is no mysterious email-writer and the claim has been invented knowing that it cannot be investigated

b) there was an email-writer but the email has been misquoted, or quote mined, in which case the motive for not naming the mysterious email writer would be so that said email is not made public which would debunk the claim

c) The claim is true. In which case there seems no benefit in hiding the person who sent the email. In fact it would be totally irresponsible to help cover up such potential fraud in the scientific community rather than naming the individual and making the email they sent public.
SF
#12
Nov23-06, 08:45 PM
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I'll have to agree with the creator of the thread.
There are certain issues which are being "hunted down" in society because of stereotypes.
They are generally based on myths or exagerations, for example:

- the myth of modern society that destroyed the primordial paradise of tribal people leaving in peace.
You'll see this theme occurring a lot, mainly in random attacks (witch hunts) on "western consumerist/corporatist/greedy/etc society".

- the myth of iminent doomsday (promoted, of course, by the doomsdaylovers :)).
Be it global warming, global dimming, asteroids, UFO's, killer bees, what-ever! They're all out to get us, and we HAVE to listen to those that warn us
I myself have accepted this and check my closet every night for ManBearPig.

- the myth of Microsoft = evil.
Especially linux fans (and nowadays firefox fans) will give you an ankward look if you praise any Microsoft product.
They'll immediately shut you off and blame you for software patents and starving kids in africa.
'Nuff said.

Btw: the "starving kids of Africa" and "poor Africa (in general)" is an important symbol of the western civilisation haters.
They hate industrialism, they'd like us to go back to an agricultural peaceful society.

Another witch-hunt is done against GW Bush and the Republicans.
Basically the believers apply the rule "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and they'll agree with anyone who speaks against their "enemy", even if it's Kim Jong-il or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Jews and jew haters. I don't know which one is more fierce: those who want to blame the jews for all the evil in the world or those who want to praise the jews for all the good in the world.

And now we got to racism: the mother of all modern witch-hunts.

Of course, as all other memes, modern witch-hunts all are extremely tied with proselytism. Yes, just as bad as the Jehova's Witnesses!
God, have you ever heard a fan of "An Inconvenient Truth" praise his movie?
Received Infraction
Andre
#13
Nov24-06, 12:49 AM
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Quote Quote by inol View Post
I have serious reason to doubt that particular claim. If it were true what is the motive for not releasing both the email and the name of the person who sent it?
I agree that's wishy washy and I don't know the motives of David Deming, why he stopped at 50%. Perhaps for health reasons? On the other hand he may also feel unable to live with a secret like that.

Anyway, it is a fact that against all the evidence and without any incentive that the Medieval Warming Period was declared death shortly after that:

http://www.publicaffairs.noaa.gov/pr...noaa98-88.html

While the evidence for a warm MWP is accumulating every day.
Mk
#14
Nov24-06, 01:40 AM
P: 2,056
Quote Quote by SF View Post
- the myth of modern society that destroyed the primordial paradise of tribal people leaving in peace.
You'll see this theme occurring a lot, mainly in random attacks (witch hunts) on "western consumerist/corporatist/greedy/etc society".

- the myth of iminent doomsday (promoted, of course, by the doomsdaylovers :)).
Be it global warming, global dimming, asteroids, UFO's, killer bees, what-ever! They're all out to get us, and we HAVE to listen to those that warn us
I myself have accepted this and check my closet every night for ManBearPig.

- the myth of Microsoft = evil.
Especially linux fans (and nowadays firefox fans) will give you an ankward look if you praise any Microsoft product.
They'll immediately shut you off and blame you for software patents and starving kids in africa.
'Nuff said.

Btw: the "starving kids of Africa" and "poor Africa (in general)" is an important symbol of the western civilisation haters.
They hate industrialism, they'd like us to go back to an agricultural peaceful society.

Another witch-hunt is done against GW Bush and the Republicans.
Basically the believers apply the rule "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", and they'll agree with anyone who speaks against their "enemy", even if it's Kim Jong-il or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Jews and jew haters. I don't know which one is more fierce: those who want to blame the jews for all the evil in the world or those who want to praise the jews for all the good in the world.

And now we got to racism: the mother of all modern witch-hunts.
Here are some articles that explain how it got to be: http://www.stormfront.org/whitenat/racism.htm
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives...rule_white.php
http://www.amren.com/mtnews/archives...sity_matte.php

Of course, as all other memes, modern witch-hunts all are extremely tied with proselytism. Yes, just as bad as the Jehova's Witnesses!
God, have you ever heard a fan of "An Inconvenient Truth" praise his movie?
SF! I liked your post. I very much agree.
marlon
#15
Nov24-06, 05:14 AM
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Quote Quote by Andre View Post
Absoluut, je kan maar niet zo zonder meer ongestraft de wereld op z'n kop zetten. dat wreekt zich zeer zeker.

translation: yes, definitely
I assume you used a translation software for the Dutch right, because the order of the words is incorrect. But still, it is the reaction that is out of proportion NOT the action.

marlon
Andre
#16
Nov24-06, 06:39 AM
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So, am I to understand that you don't think that this is an abnormal disproportional action?

Perhaps try also this thread. And perhaps it helps to understand that I personally feel subject to the witch hunt.

Soms sta ik ook wel eens te kijken van de woordvolgorde in het Vlaams.
Andre
#17
Nov24-06, 07:10 AM
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let me clarify a little about the causes of the global warming witch hunt.

On this mega site you can see exactly how the global warming idea was formed. In a word, the ice cores, the correlation between isotopes and CO2 formed the singlemost important factor. However, it's common knowledge that the physics is wrong, something with saturation. Therefore there are sceptics who say it can't be. So there were some constructions with "positive feedback" to bridge the gap but those are equally physically nonsense.

Nevertheless, if the ice cores were rightly interpreted, dramatic climate changes had occured in the past, hence we needed to change CO2 output and fast. However, the honest concern / alarm continued to meet physical critique. Then there are only two options: Either give up and accept that there is no dramatic climate change associated with greenhouse gasses, or persist and try to reach your targets with other means (bad -pre conceptual- science, hyperbole, demagoguery and witch hunts)

Meanwhile, it was proven that the CO2 in the ice cores lagged the isotopes considerably and could never have caused those changes. But that's unimportant now, the machinery does not need a cause anymore.

Anyway, if you try to find out what really happened and observe that things are rather different, you face tar and feathers.

Just an abstract here about what may have happened

and the used literature, after all, who is entitled to his own facts?
inol
#18
Nov24-06, 03:15 PM
P: 7
Quote Quote by Andre View Post
let me clarify a little about the causes of the global warming witch hunt.

On this mega site you can see exactly how the global warming idea was formed. In a word, the ice cores, the correlation between isotopes and CO2 formed the singlemost important factor. However, it's common knowledge that the physics is wrong, something with saturation. Therefore there are sceptics who say it can't be. So there were some constructions with "positive feedback" to bridge the gap but those are equally physically nonsense.

Nevertheless, if the ice cores were rightly interpreted, dramatic climate changes had occured in the past, hence we needed to change CO2 output and fast. However, the honest concern / alarm continued to meet physical critique. Then there are only two options: Either give up and accept that there is no dramatic climate change associated with greenhouse gasses, or persist and try to reach your targets with other means (bad -pre conceptual- science, hyperbole, demagoguery and witch hunts)

Meanwhile, it was proven that the CO2 in the ice cores lagged the isotopes considerably and could never have caused those changes. But that's unimportant now, the machinery does not need a cause anymore.

Anyway, if you try to find out what really happened and observe that things are rather different, you face tar and feathers.

Just an abstract here about what may have happened

and the used literature, after all, who is entitled to his own facts?
I imagine this will be largely settled within the next 30 years as long as solar trends remain the same. In 30 years time if temperature has started leveling off, or even falling, surely that will falsify the AGW theory (or at least as it stands today). On the otherhand if temperature rises 0.5C+ in that timeframe surely that would be good evidence for it.


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