Register to reply

Stop biofuel lunacy

by wolram
Tags: biofuel, lunacy, stop
Share this thread:
Evo
#55
Apr15-08, 10:38 PM
Mentor
Evo's Avatar
P: 26,557
Quote Quote by esbo View Post
I think if you look at the facts the USA is a net importer of food, so it is consuming the worlds food (both in bellies and gas tanks), largely on borrowed money.
Please post the studies that document your statement that the US is a net importer of food. No more posts until you provide this information.
esbo
#56
Apr15-08, 11:14 PM
P: 84
Quote Quote by Evo View Post
Please post the studies that document your statement that the US is a net importer of food. No more posts until you provide this information.

Oh dear that threw me
http://www.organicconsumers.org/corp/exports111204.cfm

http://www.ers.usda.gov/AmberWaves/M...ings/Fruit.htm

But I have a better idea:-

Please post the studies that document your statement that the US is a net exporter of food. No more posts until you provide this information.

Oh and before you waste your time:-

http://www.dailyreckoning.com.au/foo...is/2008/02/25/

"The United States is now a net importer of food"

Looks like I have my pass to post more


And don't forget this one:-
http://useconomy.about.com/od/tradep...de_deficit.htm
"At $2.5 trillion, the U.S. is one of the world’s largest food producers. However, it is a net importer of food, exporting only $59 billion and importing $68 billion."

I must say I find it the hight of arrogance for you suggest my claims are unfounded
when you provide no evidence to prove otherwise.

Still, par for the course I guess.

Futhermore I would go as far as to suggest that a lot of that 'food' is not being used for
food at all, but for biofuel, unless of course you have evidence to disprove that.

i mean all that food must be going somewhere, apart from into the their fat bloated bodies, surely?
esbo
#57
Apr15-08, 11:31 PM
P: 84
Of course the reason why you are under the illisuion that the USA is a net importor of food is because, well the USA would rather keep that quite, not good for the President if the US and the rest of the world realise that Bush is the worst president since sliced bread.
For similar reasons it would like to give you the impression that biofuels are not responsible for rocketing food prices.
Afterall why tell the truth when you can lie through your teeth and continue with disasterous policies, afterall nobody might spot you are a useless liar.
However I will, because I am neither.
Evo
#58
Apr15-08, 11:46 PM
Mentor
Evo's Avatar
P: 26,557
Sorry you're wrong.

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/cus...accno=ED231702

One of a series on topics of concern to the U.S. media, this guide is intended to provide journalists with concise, authoritative background information on the U.S. role in the world food situation. Today the United States is the world's greatest exporter of food. The produce of one out of every three acres goes abroad, more than half of it to developing countries. Provided and discussed are tables and charts showing agricultural exports by U.S. region and their percentage share of gross farm sales for selected years; percentage share of agricultural exports by states of region (1980); regional share of agricultural exports by commodities (1980); and the contribution of agricultural exports to employment and farm sale, and state rankings as exporters of agricultural products (1977). The guide discusses debates over the descriptions of the world food situations and variations in prescription--what the well-fed West should do about those hungry millions; also examined are questions that most world food experts agree are crucial. Agricultural research projects of land grant universities are cited as being one of the handiest sources of information on world food issues for the working journalist. The guide concludes with listings of reference materials and resource persons. (RM)
esbo
#59
Apr16-08, 12:11 AM
P: 84
Quote Quote by Evo View Post
Sorry you're wrong.

http://eric.ed.gov/ERICWebPortal/cus...accno=ED231702

One of a series on topics of concern to the U.S. media, this guide is intended to provide journalists with concise, authoritative background information on the U.S. role in the world food situation. Today the United States is the world's greatest exporter of food. The produce of one out of every three acres goes abroad, more than half of it to developing countries. Provided and discussed are tables and charts showing agricultural exports by U.S. region and their percentage share of gross farm sales for selected years; percentage share of agricultural exports by states of region (1980); regional share of agricultural exports by commodities (1980); and the contribution of agricultural exports to employment and farm sale, and state rankings as exporters of agricultural products (1977). The guide discusses debates over the descriptions of the world food situations and variations in prescription--what the well-fed West should do about those hungry millions; also examined are questions that most world food experts agree are crucial. Agricultural research projects of land grant universities are cited as being one of the handiest sources of information on world food issues for the working journalist. The guide concludes with listings of reference materials and resource persons. (RM)
OK maybe I was wrong
But do you have more recent figures than that?
esbo
#60
Apr16-08, 12:42 AM
P: 84
Quote Quote by wolram View Post
This is a couple of years old but i doubt if the situation is much different, the costs may be
but not the inter change.

http://www.iowafarmbureau.com/progra...ation/tm10.pdf
"The catch, however, is that the ethanol plants can afford to out-bid everyone else for tight corn supplies."

This is the problem, biofuel is pushing up world food costs, and the only options the people
who cannot afford those food price have is to die or go down fighting.
The second option don't look great untill you look at the first, and it won't take long for
the fight to be taken to the aggressor.
It's very simple logic.
You have a recipcy for Armageddon here.
Integral
#61
Apr16-08, 02:35 AM
Mentor
Integral's Avatar
P: 7,320
Please do not equate ethanol to biofuel. Ethanol is only ONE source of renewable fuels, and not a particularly good one. As other alternatives become available, and cheaper ethanol will go by the wayside. For the reasons you mention, and more it is simply not viable in the long term. But ethanol is not the ONLY biofuel, there are others (see some of the algae threads) which do not compete with food. To stop research in biofuels because of the problems with ethanol is simply stupid.
vanesch
#62
Apr16-08, 03:02 AM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 6,236
Quote Quote by Integral View Post
But ethanol is not the ONLY biofuel, there are others (see some of the algae threads) which do not compete with food. To stop research in biofuels because of the problems with ethanol is simply stupid.
I have to say that I am no expert in these things at all, and I would agree with you that research in biofuels (as research in about anything) is always a good idea. However, but I don't know in how much this is the cause for the current food price rises, it is not unthinkable that massive *state subventions* for trading food crops for biofuel crops WILL put the food market in competition with the skewed (by subventions) biofuel market, and will as such give rise to strong rises in food prices (but, again, I don't know if *this* price rise has anything to do with it).

We have witnessed similar problems in the past, when food growth is put in competition with a more lucrative market. We've seen this with tobacco, we've seen this with cotton, we've seen it with cocaine. Each time that food growth has to compete for farmer land and farmer activity with more lucrative crops, we get a regional food crisis. Because usually the "rich customer" is not local.
vanesch
#63
Apr16-08, 03:04 AM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
P: 6,236
Quote Quote by esbo View Post
This is the problem, biofuel is pushing up world food costs, and the only options the people
who cannot afford those food price have is to die or go down fighting.
I propose that they drink the ethanol...
Hurkyl
#64
Apr16-08, 10:15 AM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
Hurkyl's Avatar
P: 16,091
Quote Quote by esbo View Post
But do you have more recent figures than that?
I do. And a more detailed breakdown of your figures.

From here (from a link on this page, I observe that in 2007, the U.S. exported 84,228 million dollars worth of "food, feeds, and beverages", while importing only 81,686 million dollars worth. (Exhibit 6)

Notably (from Exhibits 7 and 8), over Jan-Feb 2008, the U.S. exported 4,941 million dollars worth of corn, rice, and wheat (and a few hundred million in other grains), and imported 0 dollars worth of major grains. (except for whatever's included in that 624 million dollars worth of 'feedstuff and foodgrains')


The grains look the same in the 2004 annual data too: 13,342 million dollars worth of exports for corn, rice, and wheat (and a billion or so worth of other misc grains), and no imported grains (except for what's masked by 'feedstuff and foodgrains', and maybe in 'other foods')

The trade deficit in 2004 is due to the massive importing of fish and shellfish, with wine (and related), meat, and 'other foods' being distant secondary contributors. (little more than half the seafood spending)



P.S. I've noticed that, since my previous post, you've made opening statements for starting at least five new side topics (u.s. debt, windows vista, obesity, Bush, armageddon) -- do you really intend to open these topics for discussion, or do you withdraw your comments?
wolram
#65
Apr16-08, 10:38 AM
PF Gold
wolram's Avatar
P: 3,685
About China

http://www.resourceinvestor.com/pebble.asp?relid=40915
Evo
#66
Apr16-08, 12:09 PM
Mentor
Evo's Avatar
P: 26,557
Quote Quote by esbo View Post
But do you have more recent figures than that?
This gives some interesting stats on grain export, including corn and soy, it's from March 5th, 2008. This is some interesting information that relates to this thread.

http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/3629
esbo
#67
Apr16-08, 02:16 PM
P: 84
Quote Quote by Hurkyl View Post
I do. And a more detailed breakdown of your figures.

From here (from a link on this page, I observe that in 2007, the U.S. exported 84,228 million dollars worth of "food, feeds, and beverages", while importing only 81,686 million dollars worth. (Exhibit 6)

Notably (from Exhibits 7 and 8), over Jan-Feb 2008, the U.S. exported 4,941 million dollars worth of corn, rice, and wheat (and a few hundred million in other grains), and imported 0 dollars worth of major grains. (except for whatever's included in that 624 million dollars worth of 'feedstuff and foodgrains')


The grains look the same in the 2004 annual data too: 13,342 million dollars worth of exports for corn, rice, and wheat (and a billion or so worth of other misc grains), and no imported grains (except for what's masked by 'feedstuff and foodgrains', and maybe in 'other foods')

The trade deficit in 2004 is due to the massive importing of fish and shellfish, with wine (and related), meat, and 'other foods' being distant secondary contributors. (little more than half the seafood spending)
Seems to be at odds with the several figures I posted, also I believe you figures exclude
biofuels, if seem food used as biofuels is not included.
Also the figures are quite close and were probably effected by the falling dollar making exports easier and imports harder.
esbo
#68
Apr16-08, 02:21 PM
P: 84
Quote Quote by Hurkyl View Post

P.S. I've noticed that, since my previous post, you've made opening statements for starting at least five new side topics (u.s. debt, windows vista, obesity, Bush, armageddon) -- do you really intend to open these topics for discussion, or do you withdraw your comments?
I just posted as per normal. I don't consider them 'opening statements', for what it is worth, nor side topics in particular, just a slection of words contained in my posts.
If I intended to withdraw them it is most unlikely I would have posted them in the first place.
Hurkyl
#69
Apr16-08, 05:11 PM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
Hurkyl's Avatar
P: 16,091
Quote Quote by esbo View Post
Seems to be at odds with the several figures I posted,
How so?


Quote Quote by esbo View Post
If I intended to withdraw them it is most unlikely I would have posted them in the first place.
So, you don't find it at all hypocrticial for you to make lots of comments on side topics and complain when others respond to those comments?
esbo
#70
Apr16-08, 05:26 PM
P: 84
Quote Quote by Hurkyl View Post
How so?
The ones I posted showed the US was a net importor or food.
Hurkyl
#71
Apr16-08, 05:56 PM
Emeritus
Sci Advisor
PF Gold
Hurkyl's Avatar
P: 16,091
Quote Quote by esbo View Post
The ones I posted showed the US was a net importor or food.
How that is at odds with the fact that, for certain kinds of foods, the US is almost exclusively an exporter?

You can even find the figures you quoted in the 2004 data from that page. Did you look?
esbo
#72
Apr16-08, 06:14 PM
P: 84
Quote Quote by Hurkyl View Post
So, you don't find it at all hypocrticial for you to make lots of comments on side topics and complain when others respond to those comments?
I think it is not very helpful when you igmore the main point of a thread and then take a part of it out of context and use that in the manner it was never intended in the first place it is not very helpful.
I was illustrating the vast ammounts of grain required to create biofuel.
Your comment that we could possible produce more grain than we currently produce, or whatever the point was you were trying to make does not change the fact that
it requires staggering amounts of grain to produce biofuel. You also seemed to be confusing the capacity to produce food with the food actually produced.
Hence it was a pretty pointless comment in that sense.

It would not have been so bad if you had actually addressed rather than ignored the main point raised, especially as it concerns a serious issue such as people dying of starvetion.

Yes I would think I was being hypocritical if I had made posts like that but I don't believe that is the case.


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Hydrogen car lunacy. Earth 61
Algae: The Next Biofuel Earth 0
Biofuel steps into the Jet fuel market Computing & Technology 6
UN expert seeks to halt biofuel output Earth 8