Pulleys reduce the work needed

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    Pulleys Work
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the mechanics of pulleys and their effect on work, particularly in the context of infinite pulleys and forces. Participants explore the implications of adding pulleys, the concept of work in physics, and the challenges posed by infinity in these scenarios.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that adding an infinite number of pulleys reduces the work needed by a factor of 1/n, leading to confusion about the implications of infinite force and distance.
  • Others caution against using infinity in physical contexts, suggesting it complicates the problem and does not yield productive insights.
  • One participant questions whether gravity could be used to supply the pull in a pulley system, introducing another layer of complexity.
  • Another participant argues that while pulleys decrease the force needed, they do not reduce the total work done, as work is defined as force times distance.
  • Concerns are raised about the practical limitations of using infinite pulleys and the potential for exceeding the tensile strength of the rope involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the effects of pulleys on work and the handling of infinity in physics. There is no consensus on the implications of infinite pulleys and forces.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the unresolved nature of how infinite pulleys interact with physical laws and the assumptions about ideal conditions without losses.

Ebolamonk3y
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clarify this for me...


I know that pulleys reduce the work needed, depending on how its setup... But let's say at you add n number of pulleys to mass... And the work is reduced by 1/n... So you add infinite amount of pulleys... and then you supply an infinity amount of force... inf/inf = ? What exactly are you getting here? Tug 5m... with 5 pulleys in this setup its just 5/5...hmmm confused.
 
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Just a little warning: Stay away from infinities. They do nothing productive.

cookiemonster
 
Gravity... couldn't you use that to supply the pull of this pulley?
 
Er... Gravity...?

The problem is an infinite amount of force is a tricky thing to handle. Combine it with an infinite number of pulleys and we have an even more difficult (i.e. impossible) problem to handle.

Simply put, infinity doesn't exist in physics, so don't try to force it in there.

cookiemonster
 
Whats about finite? what if the rope itself can expand or shrink... and you have to tug at it as it shrinks... then wouldn't you do less work? or... am I confusing myself...
 
I don't know about yourself, but you're certainly confusing me. =\

cookiemonster
 
heh... nvm then.
 
Work would be the SAME except for increased losses.

Force decreases with the addition of pulleys and rope displacement increases.

You would quickly exceed the rope's strength well before reaching infinity, and at some point the drag of all the pulleys and sheer mass of rope between them needs to be included in the calculation. Just having an infinite length of rope would have huge mass and then an infinite force would cause the rope to exceed its tensile strength and break, no pulley's needed.

Cliff
 
Ebolamonk3y said:
clarify this for me...


I know that pulleys reduce the work needed, depending on how its setup... But let's say at you add n number of pulleys to mass... And the work is reduced by 1/n... So you add infinite amount of pulleys... and then you supply an infinity amount of force... inf/inf = ? What exactly are you getting here? Tug 5m... with 5 pulleys in this setup its just 5/5...hmmm confused.

Pulleys do NOT reduce "work needed"- not in the physics sense of the word "work". They reduce the force needed in "work= force times distance" by increasing the distance over which the force is applied.

If you attached an "infinite" number of pulleys you would use 0 force for an "infinite" distance- which means nothing, physically. As CookieMonster said, "Stay away from infinities"!
 
  • #10
cookiemonster said:
Just a little warning: Stay away from infinities [in situations where they don' belong]. They do nothing productive.
Wise words.

[beaten to death, but eh...]
I know that pulleys reduce the work needed, depending on how its setup...
No, actually, pulleys keep the work exactly the same (assuming no losses of course). Double the number of strands and you get twice the force at half the displacement on one side and twice the displacement for half the force on the other.
 
  • #11
alright... thanks for the clarification.
 

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