image
Physics Forums Logo
image
image
* Register * Upgrade Blogs Library Staff Rules Mark Forums Read
image
image   image
image

image Inverses Share It Thread Tools Search this Thread image
Old Nov4-09, 06:49 PM                  #1
Gear300

Gear300 is Offline:
Posts: 955
Inverses

For any two elements A and B that form AB, neither A nor B have to be invertible for (AB)-1 to exist, right?
  Reply With Quote
Old Nov4-09, 06:58 PM                  #2
defunc

defunc is Offline:
Posts: 44
Re: Inverses

Both have to be invertible. Inv(AB) = inv(B)inv(A).
  Reply With Quote
Old Nov4-09, 07:01 PM                  #3
Mark44

Mark44 is Offline:
Posts: 3,520
Recognitions:
PF Contributor PF Contributor
Homework Helper Homework Helper
Re: Inverses

Right. For example..
LaTeX Code:  \\left[ <BR>\\begin{array}{c c c}<BR>1&0&0\\\\<BR>0&1&0<BR>\\end{array}<BR>\\right]<BR>\\left[ <BR>\\begin{array}{c c}<BR>1&0\\\\<BR>0&1\\\\<BR>0&0<BR>\\end{array}<BR>\\right]~=~\\left[ <BR>\\begin{array}{c c}<BR>1&0\\\\<BR>0&1\\\\<BR>\\end{array}<BR>\\right]<BR>

The matrix on the right is clearly invertible, while the two matrices in the product aren't event square, let alone invertible.
  Reply With Quote
Old Nov4-09, 07:04 PM                  #4
Mark44

Mark44 is Offline:
Posts: 3,520
Recognitions:
PF Contributor PF Contributor
Homework Helper Homework Helper
Re: Inverses

Originally Posted by defunc View Post
Both have to be invertible. Inv(AB) = inv(B)inv(A).
See my counterexample.
  Reply With Quote
Old Nov4-09, 07:14 PM                  #5
Gear300

Gear300 is Offline:
Posts: 955
Re: Inverses

Thanks for the reply. So that would mean that Inv(AB) = inv(B)inv(A) iff inv(B) and inv(A) exist (whereas Inv(AB) may exist without a defined inv(A) or inv(B)), right?
  Reply With Quote
Old Nov4-09, 07:43 PM                  #6
pbandjay

pbandjay is Offline:
Posts: 49
Re: Inverses

Looks correct to me. The condition that I am familiar with is:

If A and B are invertible matrices of the same size, then AB is invertible and (AB)-1 = B-1A-1.

This is easy to prove by showing that (AB)(B-1A-1) = A(BB-1)A-1 = AIA-1 = AA-1 = I.

As far as the other way of your "iff", if (AB)-1 = B-1A-1 is given then it seems to me that the existence of B-1 and A-1 would directly follow since they are used in the initial condition.
  Reply With Quote
Old Nov5-09, 12:26 PM                  #7
Gear300

Gear300 is Offline:
Posts: 955
Re: Inverses

I see. Thanks again for the replies. I have an additional question:

For a matrix C that is not a square matrix, there is no defined inverse; however, it is possible that there is a left inverse A and a right inverse B, in which A =/= B, for the matrix C, right?
  Reply With Quote
Old Nov5-09, 01:06 PM                  #8
Mark44

Mark44 is Offline:
Posts: 3,520
Recognitions:
PF Contributor PF Contributor
Homework Helper Homework Helper
Re: Inverses

Yes. See the wikipedia article here, under the section titled Matrices.
  Reply With Quote
Old Nov5-09, 01:23 PM                  #9
Gear300

Gear300 is Offline:
Posts: 955
Re: Inverses

Thanks for the link.

So in the case of linear systems Ax = b, I suppose it wouldn't always be possible to use the left inverse of A to isolate x as a general method since the left inverse of A does not necessarily exist. How would one isolate x in these linear systems (other than parametrization of x)?
  Reply With Quote
image image
Reply
Thread Tools


Similar Threads for: Inverses
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Del inverses paddo Calculus & Analysis 6 Sep4-08 02:21 PM
inverses of matrices fredrick08 Precalculus Mathematics 2 Aug25-08 10:01 AM
question on inverses lewis198 General Math 7 Jan1-08 01:05 PM
Multiplicative Inverses mrroboto Calculus & Analysis 5 Nov9-07 08:47 AM
About Inverses.. AznBoi Precalculus Mathematics 8 Oct8-06 01:57 AM

Powered by vBulletin Copyright ©2000 - 2009, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. © 2009 Physics Forums
Sciam | physorgPhysorg.com Science News Partner
image
image   image