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Is global warming a fact? |
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| Dec17-09, 09:49 AM | #18 |
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Is global warming a fact?
I don't guess that the global warming is a fact!
Tha planet is very strange, but this the result of the millions years of evollution For me, this is normal, the planet needs change!!! |
| Dec17-09, 09:52 AM | #19 |
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The Sun itself is remarkably constant; but the way that energy flows through the Earth is not. Earth radiates all the energy it receives from the Sun. This is called "energy balance". There can be a short term imbalance with energy actually being stored or released from the Earth, but this cannot last. The amount of energy is too large. What makes a difference for temperature is basically two things.
To accept the physics of greenhouse gases MEANS to recognize a strong effect on temperature from just this effect. The physics involved implies higher temperatures when you have more greenhouse gases. Cheers -- sylas |
| Dec17-09, 03:23 PM | #20 |
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Remember that I am in favor of reducing CO2 levels. I just don't think that radiative forcing from CO2 is real. There is not much research money these days for studying the Gaia hypothesis, that natural feedback paths make Earth's climate self regulating. But given that the solar constant has not been constant when looked at over billion year timescales, something has kept Earth from being an iceball or a Venus-like hothouse. To be perfectly fair, current research seems to indicate that the Earth did go through an iceball (or slushball) phase several times over half a billion years ago. But it didn't stay locked in that mode. There are scientists trying to fit models that make CO2 responsible for leaving the icehouse mode. I happen to favor mountain building as the solution. And the long north-south mountain chain along the Pacific edge of the Americas as why the recent (in geological terms) Ice Ages didn't become Iceball Ages. |
| Dec17-09, 04:34 PM | #21 |
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The radiative forcing of CO2 is one of the simplest and most elementary aspects of the whole science of climate. The physics of it has been known since the nineteenth century, and it can be quantified quite accurately with calculations from a couple of decades ago. (The full calculation is pretty arduous and requires a lot of computer time to integrate over the vertical atmosphere profile and over the electromagnetic spectrum.) The result is 5.35 W/m2 of forcing per natural log of CO2, accurate to 10% or so. The major reference for this is
Note that the forcing is not in terms of temperature, but energy flux. This is what forcing means. The next obvious question, of course, is what consequences the additional energy flux has for temperature. It will increase temperature of course; but how much? This is the source of the real uncertainties and open questions in climate science; the complex nature of the Earth response. As temperatures rise, you get increasing specific humidity, and this (as you point out!) is the major greenhouse gas on Earth. This increase in humidity is measured, and it works as a strong positive feedback, basically amplifying the response to ANY forcing. The other major effect is changes to weather patterns, and cloud in particular. This (as you point out) is very complicated. Most research indicates that the net effect of changing cloud in a situation of increasing temperatures is another positive feedback; although its magnitude is one of the greatest sources of uncertainty and even its sign is subject to question; under certain conditions it will be a negative (moderating) feedback. The only reason the swings don't go to a slushball or to a Venus like hothouse is that the feedbacks are still subcritical, so the response to a bounded forcing is itself bounded. Trying to marry that with the idea of "self-regulation" is rather odd. Be that as it may, there's plenty of scope for looking at longer term feedback processes. Ironically, the major effects of Earth's current arrangement of continents is to reduce the stability of climate, and contribute to the case where we've been having these large swings in climate in and out of Ice Ages with what are comparatively small orbital forcings. That is, these are not moderating influences; but actively help bring about large climate swings. See, for example, Shifting Continents and Climates, a background article at Oceanus (23 Feb 2004) at the Woods Hole Oceanographic Institute. Cheers -- sylas |
| Dec17-09, 08:15 PM | #22 |
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Hi :)
I used to live on an island, and it was there I fell in love with the whales, dolphins and porpoises. I don’t want them to suffer. I’m especially fond of dolphins because they are super intelligent and playful creatures. I found this article which made me sad. The Impact of a Changing Climate on Whales, Dolphins and Porpoises by Wendy Elliott, WWF Global Species Programme, and edited by Mark Simmonds, Whale and Dolphin Conservation Society (WDCS). http://www.wdcs.org/submissions_bin/..._hot_water.pdf On a happier note, a friend of mine gave me a present. It was a huge gourd that had small (three inch) strokes of blue and white little whales on it and was painted by a killer whale. I have a photograph of the whale painting the gourd! It's awesome. Everytime I look at it I think of the beauty that is alive and breathing, which brings me joy. There was a "Certificate of Authenticity" that came along with the gourd. It reads, "Shouka, Killer Whale (Orcinus orca) is one of Six Flags Discovery Kingdom's most enthusiastic painters. Painting is one of the many fun activities Shouka enjoys with her trainers between shows. She painted her first gourd in honor of the 2nd annual Mare Faire. She loves a lot of attention from her trainers, dolphin companions, and other human friends. She can often be heard outside Shouka Stadium when she is vocalizing with excitement during a variety of activities such as painting, mimicking her trainers and eating ice." |
| Dec18-09, 09:07 AM | #23 |
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The other simplifying assumption that fails is that anthropocentric CO2 is distributed evenly in latitude. NASA has some nice animations which show just how wrong this is--there are two belts of anthropocentric CO2 in the mid-latitudes in both hemispheres, while the CO2 concentration in higher latitudes and at the equator is much lower. Put it all together, and anthropocentric CO2 doesn't do much forcing, if any. But remember what I said, that I am very much in favor of reducing CO2 emissions because the current levels are already killing people--but elderly people and people with asthma, not by global warming. A good test of how well someone understands the issues is their attitude towards nuclear power. Nuclear power is the only remotely reasonable replacement for base load coal plants today. You are allowed to be opposed to liquid metal fast breeder reactors (LMFBRs) but that is a detail. I don't know of anyone who still wants to build LMFBRs to close the nuclear fuel cycle. Today, gas cooled and molten salt breeders are a much safer, and actually less expensive alternative. |
| Dec18-09, 10:00 AM | #24 |
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A recent thread has been started on improved details in CO2 measurements from the NASA AIRS project. See the thread AIRS and Atmospheric Carbon Dioxide. The measurements shown are for mid-troposphere, and the variation is only a few percent -- as expected for well mixed gases in the turbulent troposphere. The variation is far less that the steady increase occurring at all latitudes and all altitudes as atmospheric CO2 levels continue to rise. It is a requirement of this forum that controversial claims be backed up by suitable scientific references. In this case, your assertions about a separation of CO2 by weight, and of a lack of any contribution to forcing for anthropogenic CO2 is in conflict with very elementary atmospheric physics. I have quoted the references for forcing of 5.35 W/m2 per natural log CO2. This is a well established forcing, not in any credible doubt. Your claims about variation in CO2 levels don't appear to appreciate how small these variations actually are. Anthropgenic CO2 mixes all through the atmosphere, and by basic thermodynamics it necessarily gives a substantial radiative forcing. The forcing due to CO2 increases since pre-industrial times is about 1.7 W/m2, corresponding to a rise from 280ppm to 385ppm, and the source of this increase is anthropogenic, as established by the Suess effect and also by simple bookkeeping with the magnitude of fluxes involved. The impacts or social issues or policy issues are not on topic in this thread. The question is simply about getting the science of climate right. Is global warming a fact? Yes it is; and so also is the significance of CO2 as a major contributing factor to increasing temperatures. What remains uncertain is the magnitude of climate response to various forcings (sensitivity), the associated patterns of climate change as the globe heats up, and also the contribution of various other forcings, both non-greenhouse forcings, and greenhouse forcings from other gases. Cheers -- sylas |
| Dec18-09, 10:51 AM | #25 |
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eachus;
Global warming due human emission of CO2 is a fact. However, the rate of change is so slow (0.02C/year) that it is difficult to measure and easy to dismiss. Even over 10 years, 0.2C is a small change. On a typical day, temperatures vary by 10C between day and night. While from one day to the next, 3 or 4 C is not unusual. So, even though the science of global warming from CO2 is well understood and documented, we will continue to find people that are quick to reject it without taking the time to understand it. Some of the opposition is due to a lack of knowledge, but others are driven by fear and political motives. |
| Dec18-09, 11:56 AM | #26 |
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Anyone ever put Myhre's forcing estimates into the Stefan-Boltzmann equations.
If the total forcing increase from GHGs is 1.7 W/m2, the Stefan-Boltzmann equations predict very little temperature change from an increase this small. Surface TempK Today = (390 W/m2/5.67E-08)^.25 = 287.98K = 15.0C Surface TempK Pre-Ind = (388.3 W/m2/5.67E-08)^.25 = 287.66K = 14.7C So either Myhre's estimates are not really the traditional watts/metre^2 measure we use normally or the Stefan-Boltzmann equations aren't even being used. |
| Dec18-09, 12:36 PM | #27 |
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The American Association for the Advancement of Science has the “Science Insider” with articles pertaining to this discussion. I think it’s worthy of a review. Thanks.
http://blogs.sciencemag.org/cgi-bin/...IncludeBlogs=9 |
| Dec18-09, 12:54 PM | #28 |
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The difference with the real climate on Earth is that as temperature increases, so also do other aspects that bear upon energy balance. Ice melts (increasing albedo), humidity increases (more greenhouse, but less lapse rate) cloud changes (altering both greenhouse and albedo in complex ways); plus also changes in vegetation and land cover. All this becomes feedback, either positive or negative, which bears upon "climate sensitivity" to either amplify or damp the base non-feedback response. I mentioned this in my earlier post, as an aspect of climate that is NOT well known. The base non-feedback response is pretty well constrained, but it does not suffice to let you infer the temperature impact. Here is a better way of doing it. The Earth is not a black body emitter. You must consider both albedo and emissivity. The Earth has an albedo of about 0.3, which means that about 30% of the solar input is reflected, and does not give any heating. Also, the radiation into space from the Earth corresponds to an effective temperature of about 255K. This is because of the greenhouse effect, which gives Earth an effective emissivity. Surface temperature is about 288K, because of the additional blanketing effect of the atmosphere. You get into the right ball park by using a grey-body approximation relating surface temperature to the absorbed solar energy. For a grey-body, the Stephan-Boltzmann relation is [tex]Q = \sigma \epsilon T^4[/tex]Q is the thermal emission flux from the top of the atmosphere, and ε is an effective emissivity. T is the surface temperature. The solar constant is about 343 W/m2 over the surface of the planet. 30% of this is reflected, leaving 240 W/m2 energy absorbed. This is what Earth emits as thermal radiation; it is the value for Q. T is the surface temperature, about 288K. The value for ε is about 0.6; but in fact we can cancel it as follows. [tex]\frac{dQ}{dT} = 4 \sigma \epsilon T^3 = 4Q/T[/tex]The rate of change of energy emitted with temperature is about 4 * 240 / 288 = 3.3 W/m2/K. This is a non-feedback response. For every 3.3 W/m2 of forcing (change in Q) we should get about a degree of temperature change -- ignoring feedbacks. The 1.7 W/m2 forcing corresponds to a bit over half a degree. You obtain a slightly smaller value because you are using Stephan-Boltzmann at the surface, with Q=390 as the emission of radiation from the surface. But that's the wrong comparison for a forcing, which by definition is the change in energy balance at the top of the atmosphere. The method with a non-unit emissivity will give you a closer value for the proper application of Stefan-Boltzman to a forcing. There are in the literature more detailed calculations considering the emissivity of the atmosphere and the fact that the Earth is not a uniform sphere. The value obtained is around 3.2 W/m2/K; close to the simple approximation I used above. There are a number of important provisos with this number.
As it turns out, these additional considerations mostly cancel out. The effect of time delay with heating of the ocean works in the short term rather like a negative feedback, and so the observed amplification short term is smaller than than full equilibrium response. The other additional forcings are both positive and negative, and of comparable magnitudes each way. The net effect is that the base response is not that far off what we should experience; generally estimated to be a small amplification over base response. So.... a naive application of Stefan-Boltzman to CO2 levels alone gives about half a degree of heating. And the actual temperature rise we have observed is in a similar ballpark... around 0.7 degrees. For more discussion in other threads:
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| Dec18-09, 12:57 PM | #29 |
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Bill; That's a good point.
Although I apply the Stefan-Boltzmann differantly, I still get a similar answer; 0.5C. Basic Stefan-Boltzmann equation: Temp (K) = [2*TSI*emissitivity*(1-albedo)/(4*5.67*x10^-8)]^(0.25) TSI: Total Solar Irradiance - Watts/m^2 emissitivity; nominally 0.81 - unitless albedo; nominally 0.3 - unitless The 1.7 watt/m^2 forcing is applied to what could be considered to be the net incoming radiation term: TSI*(1-albedo)/4 net result 0.5C of warming since pre-industrial times due to human influence and including solar changes. The IPCC gives a global mean radiative forcing value since pre-industrial times of 1.6 watts/m2 with a range of 0.6 to 2.4. This includes all greenhouse gases, land use, black carbon, aerosols, contrails and solar irradiance. What's missing are the feedbacks from water vapor and snow/ice melting albedo changes. So, feedbacks have made the observed warming greater than that from the underlying inital changes. |
| Dec18-09, 07:01 PM | #30 |
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I guess I have a number of issues with the standard explanations for the physics of global warming (and thanks to sylas and Xnn for indulging me here):
First, the Stefan-Boltzmann equations are the fundamental equations governing radiation physics and temperature. I really think that global warming theory needs to be consistent in some form with these proven and successful equations. Second, the Stefan-Boltzmann equations are logarithmic. The surface of the Earth needs to add 5.5 W/m2 to go up by 1.0K but the Sun needs to add 50,000 W/m2 to increase its temperature by 1.0K. We can't use averages covering many different radiation levels in these calculations. It must be done on each individual extra watt, one at a time - the differential rather than the average. Third, there are four different levels of the atmosphere which are emitting at 240 W/m2. Traditionally, the tropopause is defined as the level where the Earth is in equilibrium with the Solar forcing - the first level where that occurs is about 4 kms up - lower than the top of Mount Everest and lower than the definition of the tropopause. Fourth, all the effective action of the greenhouse effect operates below this 4 km level. We use the term "Emissivity or even the Lapse Rate" but isn't this really just the time delay it takes for an Infra-Red photon from the surface to random walk/bounce around the atmosphere and the surface before it reaches the 4 km level and eventually escapes back into space. The average time a photon from the Sun spends in the Earth system is only 18 hours (some make it to the deep ocean and spends a thousand years in the Earth system while the majority of the energy represented by photons from the Sun escapes to space overnight after bouncing around a million individual atmosphere molecules. For every 240 W/m2 coming in from the Sun, an extra 150 w/m2 is time-delayed/accumulated near the surface to provide the Greenhouse Effect and keep the surface 33K warmer than the equilibrium temperature at 4 kms high. Fifth, since these issues are so complicated and prone to error, why do we not look at the empirical evidence of the paleoclimate to provide an independent verification of the theory. Since the issues are so theoritical, we should go back to ground and see what has really happened in the climate per doubling of CO2. The actual/estimated temperature and CO2 history of the climate does not verify the 3.0C per doubling estimate. The paleoclimate is only consistent with 1.0C to 1.5C per doubling. Maybe I am way off base here, but these issues are not addressed in the standard explanation. It only takes a 25% error in the estimates from the standard explanation to make a huge difference in the global warming per doubling estimate. |
| Dec18-09, 08:01 PM | #31 |
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I'm fond of the ocean as one can tell by a previous posting. As a responsible citizen of planet Earth, and a concerned one at that, it's important for me to learn about my environment and the options available. Foremost, I like to share with others so they are informed as well. :)
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| Dec18-09, 09:09 PM | #32 |
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Let me make one quick suggestion; as an advertisement. I think you are going to love this. Ray Pierrehumbert of the University of Chicago is about to bring out a new undergraduate level textbook on climate science, and the book is really excellent for someone who wants just the science and who loves maths -- which seems like it might be you. It gets very technical, but you can dip into bits of it at a time. The whole draft is up on the website as a link to an 18 Mbyte pdf. The book is basically finished, and it is going to publishers soon, and this draft will be removed, apparently. Get yourself a copy now, while you still can! I have found this a really useful resource for learning about the underlying background and physics of energy flows in the atmosphere. The web page for the book is The Climate Book, and the link to the pdf is in "Current draft" and he's still soliciting comment on this draft. When the book comes out, it will be
This goes through basic underlying physics to let you infer (or at least understand how to infer) from first principles such things as lapse rate, tropopause height, surface temperature, and so on, for essentially any planet. It is designed to be used as a teaching text, in which students solve such problems at all levels of detail, up to major computing projects. The book also comes with lots of supporting computer code. In brief, this does climate without weather. It goes very deep into simple energy flow models without using the fluid dynamics that would be needed for all the details of circulation and currents in the atmosphere and oceans. Chapter 2 is thermodynamics in a nutshell, and chapter 3 is elementary models of radiation balance -- and specifically this is where Stefan-Boltzman law is introduced. I've added some labels to point to various features. As you can see, the spectrum is not a simple blackbody spectrum. In some bands, the atmosphere is pretty much transparent. In these bands, the spectrum follows closely the curve for a temperature of about 288K; this is thermal radiation coming up from the surface. In other bands, the atmosphere is almost opaque. The "saturated region" is an example, and here the curve closely follows a spectrum for close to 220K, which is the temperature of the tropopause and lower stratosphere. Basically, the only radiation in this band that can escape to space is emitted from high in the atmosphere, where it is cold. This is mainly a CO2 absorption band. The complex behaviour on the left hand side of the diagram is caused mainly by the greenhouse effects of water vapour, which is not well mixed throughout the atmosphere, and hence does not have a simple relationship to a particular temperature. The effective emission altitudes in this band are somewhere in the troposphere. Now in your diagram, the vertical axis is distance. Physically, it is easier to use pressure as a vertical co-ordinate, as this actually tells you the mass of the atmosphere at any level. Check out Earth Atmosphere Model, an education site at NASA. This represents the atmosphere in three bands: the troposphere with temperature falling with altitude, the lower stratosphere with near constant temperature, and the upper stratosphere with temperatures rising with altitude. In this model, the pressure tells you that about 2.5% of the atmosphere by mass is above the lower stratosphere... the region of your graph with constant temperature. Everything above that has minimal effect on Earth's energy balance. It's just too thin. At any given altitude, you will have radiant energy flowing up, and down. As well as this, in the troposphere you have energy flowing upwards by convection, including latent heat. This is what maintains the lapse rate in the troposphere. At each level, you absorb a small amount of the radiation, and also emit a small amount based on temperature, according to the frequency dependent Plank radiation laws. This all gets very technical in full detail, but by the time you finish chapter 4 of the text, you have pretty much what you need to explain and derive temperature profiles in an atmosphere of a given composition and with a given solar input. The most important period for helping constrain climate sensitivity is the Last Glacial Maximum.
Our inferred uncertainty range for climate sensitivity, constrained by paleo-data, is 1.2-4.3oC and thus almost identical to the IPCC estimate. When additionally accounting for potential structural uncertainties inferred from other models the upper limit increases by about 1oC. Cheers -- sylas |
| Dec18-09, 10:07 PM | #33 |
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When a photon enters earth atmosphere 1 of 2 things happen. First, it might just be reflected and will immediately exit the earth atmosphere. In this case, the time is measured in nanoseconds since light travels so fast. Second, it might be absorbed. If it gets absorbed, then it will be re-radiated according to the stefan boltzmann law. By this law, the re-radiated energy will be somewhere in the infrared part of the spectrum which is readily absorbed by all the greenhouse gases and clouds in the atmosphere. I've never seen any authoritative estimate of how long it takes these infrared photons to make it into outer space, but I know that some of them never do. Instead, the energy is transported by thermals or water vapor. That it, mechanical process are important within the troposphere. Anyhow, emissivity of the atmosphere is basically the ratio between the outgoing infrared radiation at the top of the atmosphere compared to the flux on the surface. It is a unitless number as it is just a ratio. CO2 levels have a direct influence on emissivity. Lapse rate is how quickly the atmosphere cools off with elevation. There is probably some complicated relationship between emissivity and lapse rate, but I've never seen one. http://www.giss.nasa.gov/research/fe...ene/page2.html |
| Dec18-09, 10:08 PM | #34 |
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I'm impressed by all contributors! :) Everyone is eager to add to the pot of information. I do like that.
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