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synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers |
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| Jun5-10, 10:49 PM | #222 |
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synesthesia, some people perceive individual symbols, characters, numbers |
| Jun6-10, 12:22 AM | #223 |
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I wasn't speaking in a professional capacity (I'm only a student). As a neuroscience student, though, synesthesia baffles me. But it seems like once (if) the "binding problem" is solved--the problem of how different aspects of a percept such as the form, color, and movement of a chair bind together as a unified whole--researchers may get a firmer handle on how to explain synesthesia. Or vice versa. From what I understand, there isn't firm neurological evidence that simple "cross-wiring" does it. If the structural connection differences that cause synesthesia are indirect--distributed, rare--then structural imaging might not show anything. What's more, the main cause could lie in differences in synaptic efficacy (does anybody know if there's any histology research on synesthesia?). It seems likely, though, that you should see some brain activity differences. You could go the conventional fMRI-localization route. I'd like to see researchers try to develop some kind of rigorous functional measure that clearly distinguishes synesthetic from control brain activity, like some have done with epilepsy (e.g. C. J. Stam). |
| Jun7-10, 08:38 AM | #224 |
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My previous mention of Helene Grimaud in GD- http://www.physicsforums.com/showthr...130401&page=53 Post #845, Which contains this link- http://www2.deutschegrammophon.com/s...credo&DETAIL=1 'It was when I was eleven, and working on the F sharp major Prelude from the first book of Bach's Well-tempered Clavier - I perceived something that was very bright, between red and orange, very warm and vivid: an almost shapeless stain, rather like what you would see in the recording control-room if the image of sound were projected on a screen. But as numbers had always had colours for me - two was yellow, four was red, five was green - and as I have always found music evocative, I didn't regard this as unusual. It was more the idea of colour than colour itself. Certain pieces always project me into a particular colour-world. Sometimes it's a result of the tonality - C minor is black, and D minor, the key that has always been closest to me, being the most dramatic and poignant is blue.' I don’t know of any studies authenticating Grimaud’s synaesthesia, but have seen some studies that accept her reports. From the anecdote quoted, it seems possible that in realising the experience of audio-colour cross-talk, it may have become easier to access. It is also hard to detect from the use of “perceive”, but by the explanation that it is "more the idea of colour than colour itself”, it sounds as if this audio-colour experience is of the "higher" type. Also from the above description, it seems different aspects of sound evoke responses. |
| Jun7-10, 08:48 AM | #225 |
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| Jun7-10, 08:50 AM | #226 |
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I also didn’t link to the thread where I wrote of Einstein, it is # 25 in this thread - http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=390043
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| Jun10-10, 02:50 PM | #227 |
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To all: Google is an amazing thing, try this: Google trends: synesthesia
Very neat way to see works produced by date/country. You can filter results using the drop down combo boxes, top right, and can export to a *.csv file for import into Word, Spreadsheet or Database. Cool... Edit: 06/11 I haven't tried this yet, but it looks worthwhile as well: Google translate: inputs: text, webpage, URL, or upload document. I haven't found a document on synesthesia in say French and then tried to translate it, but it is nice to know it is there. Rhody...
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| Jun13-10, 12:50 PM | #228 |
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This is a continuation of post #220. I want to keep the body of it altogether, so what has already been done is reproduced with minor changes as needed:
I will try to keep it pithy, but drill down with enough detail to keep it interesting. You may read about things you haven't heard of before. It won't be perfect, I will do my best to keep it accurate. If anyone has more accurate or current information that I may overlook, please, add input as you see fit: 1. Bi-Directional synesthesia: definition 2. fMRI function overview 3. EEG function overview 4. fMRI, EEG limitations 5. Recommend you open a new TAB in your browser and view: Brain Anatomy and Functions 6. Discuss 2007: The Neuronal Correlate of Bidirectional Synesthesia: A Combined Event-related Potential and Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging Study fMRI, EEG 7. Discuss 2009: Multiple dimensions in bi-directional synesthesia EEG only 8. Discuss results of both papers, where they agree, disagree or produce different results. The definition of bi-directional synesthesia is not set in stone. Parts of it are still to be proven conclusively. There is evidence based on these two studies, (and earlier studies listed in the references section of each paper) that suggest a more complete definition of bi-directional synesthesia be defined as: 1. (as referred to in the two papers above) applies to: (color->grapheme, or grapheme->color), with one stimulating the other, in either order, at an explicit (perceived) and implicit (person is not aware) level involving the following: 3. EEG Overview: 6. Discuss 2007: The Neuronal Correlate of Bidirectional Synesthesia: A Combined Event-related Potential and Functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging Study fMRI, EEG My interpretation (from paper #1 above): when color stimulates number, the synesthete sees the number, and brain shows activation in color and grapheme areas. Here is the tricky part, at this point the person is not aware that the number (secondary stimulation) is stimulating the color area of the brain (they do not see it, it is implicit), experimental data shows a cross activation in the areas of the brain associated with grapheme and color areas. This is the implicit case: a synesthete compared the height of two lines, line color modulated the performance, a longer line was presented in a color that was induced by a larger digit. This is the congruent case. There is another case as well. This is the explicit case: a synesthete compared a longer line appeared in a color induced by a smaller digit and a shorter line in a color that was induced by a larger digit. This is the incongruent condition. The synesthete subject spontaneously reported that the colors of the lines evoked the perception of the corresponding digits, showing explicit experience of bi-directionality. 7. Discuss 2009: Multiple dimensions in bi-directional synesthesia EEG only. Remember, you must sign up here in order to download this paper. We will see later that the implicit case supports evidence for 'higher" and "lower" synesthetes indicating that, excerpt from the 2009 paper, (I let the authors relate this information because it was clearer than my repeated attempts at interpretation, most important concepts highlighted in blue): I am a bit tired at this point, I think you have seen by now what an fMRI can detect versus an EEG, is that the newer 2009 Paper using strictly EEG measurements is that the "priming effect is definitely" more pronounced subjects with synesthesia versus those who do not have it: See figure below: Second, the first paper (2007) using both fMRI and EEG (non-concurrent) produced evidence for both implicit and for the first time explicit bi-directional synesthesia. I have more to add but can't quite think straight now. No use in pushing and saying something stupid. I will add more here later before the edit period expires. Quote a lot of food for thought and review (if you read the papers three times like I did so most of it sinks in). ![]() Rhody... ![]() P.S. I learned something about "learning" in this process that I never really paid attention to before. When you read and try to digest complex material, you never "get it" the first or even the second time through, suggesting as I have come to understand it, new "brain mapping" consisting of new long term neuronal connections being made in the brain when repeated attempts are made to grasp the material. I got this from "The brain that changes itself" by Norman Dodge, MD. Highly recommended reading by: V.S. Ramachandran, who is already at the top of my reading list, so it was a no-brainer from there. I plan to use some of the material from this book for future probings of the mysteries of the brain. There, now I am done, lol. |
| Jun14-10, 08:31 AM | #229 |
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Thanks Rhody, for all your work here. It is very interesting, e.g.-
"Our results indicate that attentional or inhibitory processes appear to play a role in bi-directional priming in all synesthetes, whereas only some (possibly ‘lower’) synesthetes reveal a priming effect at a lower, possibly perceptual level, as well." I haven't looked at the second paper, but will when I get a chance. |
| Jun17-10, 07:54 PM | #230 |
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First. an observation, I was just thinking, did my last technical post drive everyone away ?!
lol I hope not. There are more brain mysteries to be probed and discussed, at an even deeper level. I am working that now, to be posted in a new thread. This subject blew me away almost as much as synesthesia did a few months back, and from what I know so far is even newer than serious research being done in synesthesia. This time I will take my time before I post and provide as much background/research as I can.This is a funny story, since I have spent considerable time and effort with this subject and enjoy engaging others with it, I sent a link to this thread to a co-worker whom I have known almost 20 years, knowing she likes to study how the brain works. She read parts of it and I stopped by to ask what she thought. It turns out that when she eats certain foods she feels a cubic sensation (with slightly rounded edges), a fairly rare form of synesthesia, second, when she looks at small square floor tiles (one color), she sees pastel pink, blue and yellow colors in patterns between the tile margins. She said she always remembers having it. Then I asked her if she had them more frequently when calm and not distracted by other sensory input, she said yes, they come and go. Being an engineer with a keen interest in how the brain works, she borrowed my copy of Cytowic's, "The Man who tasted Shapes", said she would read it and then discuss. Pretty cool. As she was relating her stories about mixed senses, a couple of other folks who were in hearing distance, asked about it, so I sent them the link to this thread. One more thing, I said this back in post #93 Without keeping statistics on people who claim to have it, I would guess that about 1 to 2 in 10 I have given the link to either have some form of it or know someone who does. I wouldn't be surprised if some may want to join this little party at some point to contribute an experience not already covered. Rhody... |
| Jun18-10, 03:58 AM | #231 |
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| Jun18-10, 07:11 AM | #232 |
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You beat me to it. After the story with how waht's selective sound/color synesthesia, certain frequencies played a certain way triggering it, I agree with you. This is worth investigating. This thread will serve as a semi-permanent record of those who have incomplete forms of it. It is compelling evidence. Thanks, waht, through questions and answers were able to pin down the exact characteristics of your form of synesthesia. When my friend finishes Cytowic's book she agreed to answer questions. It ought to be interesting because she is an engineer and takes a scientific approach to things, plus she likes the subject to boot. Rhody...
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| Jun18-10, 11:34 AM | #233 |
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This also sounds rather like the other experiences mentioned, like Helene Grimaud's, waht's, etc.-
"In his early years, Kandinsky discovered his synesthesia while attending a performance of Wagner's opera Lohengrin in Moscow: 'The violins, the deep tones of the basses, and especially the wind instruments at that time embodied for me all the power of that pre-nocturnal hour. I saw all my colors in my mind; they stood before my eyes. Wild, almost crazy lines were sketched in front of me' (Kandinsky, 1913/1982, p. 364). " http://www.theassc.org/files/assc/2290.pdf This article expresses opinions on this sort of thing. It is a version of the final chapter of Van Campen’s book, which Enuma Elish had linked to, “The Hidden Sense: Synesthesia in Art and Science (Cambridge MA: MIT Press 2007). ”, adapted and elaborated upon- http://www.pucsp.br/pos/tidd/teccogs...igo_CAMPEN.pdf “I do not think that every person can become aware of all types of synesthesia. There are obviously brain constraints on that. But I do think that many persons are not aware of their synesthetic potential, simply because they use only a portion of their senses.” |
| Jun19-10, 08:33 AM | #234 |
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I wrote this post in the audio-visual thread, but it seems appropriate to put it here.
I understand humans have mulitsensed perceptions with benefits like added affirmation and precision. I’ve read the gustatory and olfactory sensations are difficult to distinguish between and are particularly old senses both with important benefits in the detection, and interpretation of quality, of food. Benefits of audio-visual sensory integration would involve precise location of stimulus. This is book seems a good over-view from 2004. Chapter 2, on page 27 is about audio-visual perception in particular- http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=C...ensory&f=false Parts of the book describe cross-modality, hetromodality, multisensory neurons, synaesthesia, etc.. This is an example of the papers mentioned- http://www.jneurosci.org/cgi/content...act/22/13/5749 I had mentioned the McGurk effect before here, (again- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jtsfidRq2tw ) and understand that the youtube I presented described a typical response, but that reactions vary and may hypothetically depend on individual modal strengths and weaknesses. I don’t have that response (and can think of a reason why that may be the case). I wonder if that means in this instance, mine is an atypical cross-modal response. Isn’t that a definition of synaesthesia :) ? |
| Jun20-10, 07:26 PM | #235 |
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Funny when you try to copy the google generated html it is back in turkish, and if you save it as html it doesn't open in Word correctly. May be something I am not doing right. I thought it was worth trying and to give you the results so you can decide for yourself if it is worth bothering with. For something like a simple News story it may squeak by, but not for getting facts misinterpreted in a scientific paper. It was worth the time to explore it though, IMHO. Rhody...
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| Jun21-10, 10:07 AM | #236 |
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Here is the latest research on synesthesia.
of Medicine- National Institutes of Health. You can review from that website to the right of the page related citations pertaining to the topic: synesthesia. |
| Jun21-10, 04:38 PM | #237 |
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In retrospect, I used to be submersed in its subjective experience for most of my life, and now there is a whole new dimension to it which brings a pleasant feeling of closure. So yes, this thread is superb, and can be certainly enriched by more stories of people that come out of the closet. |
| Jun21-10, 04:46 PM | #238 |
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