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Infinite time paradox

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Deepak Kapur
#37
Aug21-11, 11:58 AM
P: 76
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
And how is this 'simulation of time' different from actual time?

If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, what makes you think it's not a duck?
Some examples:

1. Do clocks measure time?

a) Yes.

b) No, clocks do not measure time. Time is 'defined' to be what clocks measure. Hands of a clock 'move' and are only physical variables. So we see physical variables (hands of a clock) as a function of some other physical changeables. It is only 'represented' that everything is moving in time.


2. A scene. Motion of every particle in this universe stops. The universe will be in the same state even after billions and billions of yeras. What has happened?

a) Time has stopped.

b) Motion has stopped.



I go by (b) in both the cases.



Illusions look very much real but they are illusions after all.
DaveC426913
#38
Aug21-11, 12:07 PM
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Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
Some examples:

1. Do clocks measure time?

a) Yes.

b) No, clocks do not measure time. Time is 'defined' to be what clocks measure. Hands of a clock 'move' and are only physical variables. So we see physical variables (hands of a clock) as a function of some other physical changeables. It is only 'represented' that everything is moving in time.
And how exactly does this make it illusory?

Before clocks were invented, before life formed on Earth, the universe ticked by happily. Were atom,s suffering from delusions too?


Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
2. A scene. Motion of every particle in this universe stops. The universe will be in the same state even after billions and billions of yeras. What has happened?

a) Time has stopped.

b) Motion has stopped.
Despite this being an utterly speculative and fabricated hypothesis, I'll let it slide for the sake of argument.

How does this make it illusory?

When my engine stops my car stops too. Is my car therefore illusory?



Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post

Illusions look very much real but they are illusions after all.
This says nothing.

You have avoided the question. What makes something that is experienced by every fibre of our universe get relegated to the lowly status of illusion? What is your definition of illusion as distinct from reality?
Deepak Kapur
#39
Aug21-11, 12:30 PM
P: 76
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
And how exactly does this make it illusory?

Before clocks were invented, before life formed on Earth, the universe ticked by happily. Were atom,s suffering from delusions too?



Despite this being an utterly speculative and fabricated hypothesis, I'll let it slide for the sake of argument.

How does this make it illusory?

When my engine stops my car stops too. Is my car therefore illusory?




This says nothing.

You have avoided the question. What makes something that is experienced by every fibre of our universe get relegated to the lowly status of illusion? What is your definition of illusion as distinct from reality?
You deliberately or due to some delusion ( or doggedness) have not understood the clock example. An electon moving around the nucleus can also be taken to be the hand of a clock.

It doesn't reqire 'time' to stop your car's engine but the 'movement' of car's key and all the other 'movements' associated with this process.

FYE the equations that attempt to reconcile quantum mechanics and relativity are devoid of the time factor. Moreover, even thermodynamic equations are blind to the direction of time (a strange thing).

{Much of the facts that are taken for granted these days were utterly perturbing in the past. Same is true for future. But doggedness (or overconfidence or arrogance or some strategy to maintain the staus quo) bypass such observations.}
Hurkyl
#40
Aug21-11, 12:32 PM
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Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
Some examples:

1. Do clocks measure time?

a) Yes.

b) No, clocks do not measure time. Time is 'defined' to be what clocks measure.

...

I go by (b)
(b) is obviously false, and that fact has nothing to do with physics. If time is defined to be what clocks measure, then by definition, clocks measure time. (no matter what "clock" or "measure" might mean)
cragar
#41
Aug21-11, 12:34 PM
P: 2,466
Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
FYE the equations that attempt to reconcile quantum mechanics and relativity are devoid of the time factor.

{Much of the facts that are taken for granted these days were utterly perturbing in the past. Same is true for future. But doggedness (or overconfidence or arrogance or some strategy to maintain the staus quo) bypass such observations.}
What about Quantum field theory.
DaveC426913
#42
Aug21-11, 12:40 PM
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Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
You deliberately or due to some delusion ( or doggedness) have not understood the clock example. An electon moving around the nucleus can also be taken to be the hand of a clock.
Please don't accuse me of delusions. You brought up the clock as an example for your case. It's trivial to refute it.

An electron in an orbital of a nucleus is fine. You have not explained how it is illusory though.

Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
It doesn't reqire 'time' to stop your car's engine but the 'movement' of car's key and all the other 'movements' associated with this process.
Your claim is: if all molecules stop, time stops. This is proof that time is illusory.
So, things that can be stopped are illusory? You see how it does not follow.

Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
FYE the equations that attempt to reconcile quantum mechanics and relativity are devoid of the time factor. Moreover, even thermodynamic equations are blind to the direction of time (a strange thing).

{Much of the facts that are taken for granted these days were utterly perturbing in the past. Same is true for future But doggedness (or overconfidence or arrogance or some strategy to maintain the staus quo) bypass such observations.}
Please don't fall back on insults. Invocation of "arrogance" and "status quo" complaints is the first resort of a crackpot. You're not a crackpot, right?

You presented an argument. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

I haven't said you are wrong, I have simply shown that you haven't made your case.
Ryan_m_b
#43
Aug21-11, 12:47 PM
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Motion can be how we measure time but if objects in a system cease in motion that does not mean that cease in time. If everything stopped then there would be no way of telling.

If time does not exist then nothing would be able to move, movement occurs through dimensions. One of these is time, it's foolish to say that motion is time because how do you get from one motion to the next? What media does motion occur through if not spacetime?
Deepak Kapur
#44
Aug21-11, 12:53 PM
P: 76
Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
Please don't accuse me of delusions. You brought up the clock as an example for your case. It's trivial to refute it.

An electron in an orbital of a nucleus is fine. You have not explained how it is illusory though.


Your claim is: if all molecules stop, time stops. This is proof that time is illusory.
So, things that can be stopped are illusory? You see how it does not follow.



Please don't fall back on insults. Invocation of "arrogance" and "status quo" complaints is the first resort of a crackpot. You're not a crackpot, right?

You presented an argument. Your conclusion does not follow from your premise.

I haven't said you are wrong, I have simply shown that you haven't made your case.
I haven't 'claimed' anything. I also don't like insulting anyone. The word 'delusion' was not used by me first.

[/QUOTE]So, things that can be stopped are illusory?[/QUOTE]

I don't get you. As per you molecules should be illusory. I haven't said that.
Deepak Kapur
#45
Sep1-11, 08:50 AM
P: 76
Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
I haven't 'claimed' anything. I also don't like insulting anyone. The word 'delusion' was not used by me first.
So, things that can be stopped are illusory?[/QUOTE]

I don't get you. As per you molecules should be illusory. I haven't said that.[/QUOTE]





Hi all,

The 'ban' imposed on me has expired.

One thing is for certain. This forum stifles mercilessly any opinion that it does not like.
Deepak Kapur
#46
Sep1-11, 08:53 AM
P: 76
Quote Quote by ryan_m_b View Post
Motion can be how we measure time but if objects in a system cease in motion that does not mean that cease in time. If everything stopped then there would be no way of telling.

If time does not exist then nothing would be able to move, movement occurs through dimensions. One of these is time, it's foolish to say that motion is time because how do you get from one motion to the next? What media does motion occur through if not spacetime?
Motion occurs through space only and an unbalanced force is responsible for it. Time doesn't have any role in this, I suppose.
Ryan_m_b
#47
Sep1-11, 08:53 AM
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Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
Hi all,

The 'ban' imposed on me has expired.

One thing is for certain. This forum stifles mercilessly any opinion that it does not like.
Absolutely untrue. What this forum does do is provide a platform for discussion of subjects so long as those discussions come with A) logical arguments and B) references to peer-reviewed literature.

Your problem was that you attempted to prove that time was illusionary without either of these. It would have been better if you looked up current physical understanding of what time is and worked from there rather than claiming time = motion and providing no evidence for this (other than faulty scenarios) and not accounting for how this conflicts with current understanding.
Quote Quote by Deepak Kapur View Post
Motion occurs through space only and an unbalanced force is responsible for it. Time doesn't have any role in this, I suppose.
Motion occurs through space and time. Draw a spacetime diagram with space on the X axis and time on the Y axis. Put A somewhere a long the X axis and B somewhere else on the X axis. How do you move from A to B without also travelling along the Y axis i.e. how do you move through space without moving through time?
JordanL
#48
Sep1-11, 04:19 PM
P: 42
Quote Quote by alt View Post
Interesting book, though from the summary points, and without having read it, it doesn't seem to take us past any existing impasse on these matters. To quote part of the Wiki article;

The basic argument
1.Whatever begins to exist, has a cause of its existence (i.e. something has caused it to start existing).
2.The universe began to exist. i.e., the temporal regress of events is finite.
3.Therefore, the universe has a cause.

Following Al-Ghāzāli, Craig argues that this cause must be a personal will.


My underlined .. it seems most cosmological arguments reduce to this. The first cause; God, or Big bang .. personally, I'm not to sure about either.
It's my understanding that the Big Bang, or rather the point where the Universe began, does not represent an absolute beginning in the sense that most people think of it as. It represents a point in the timeline we share where all information about what was before it was normalized into a single point.
Hells
#49
Sep2-11, 06:01 PM
P: 30
Quote Quote by ryan_m_b View Post
Motion can be how we measure time but if objects in a system cease in motion that does not mean that cease in time. If everything stopped then there would be no way of telling.
If there's no way in telling, what actual need is there to differentiate it from motion?
If time does not exist then nothing would be able to move, movement occurs through dimensions. One of these is time, it's foolish to say that motion is time because how do you get from one motion to the next? What media does motion occur through if not spacetime?
Isn't that just the chicken and the egg? EG a meaningless debate. Whether movement creates time, or time creates movement, I don't see any difference.
Ryan_m_b
#50
Sep3-11, 04:32 AM
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Quote Quote by Hells View Post
If there's no way in telling, what actual need is there to differentiate it from motion?
Who says there's no difference? I was referring to the OPs hypothetical question, not suggesting that there is no difference.
Quote Quote by Hells View Post
Isn't that just the chicken and the egg? EG a meaningless debate. Whether movement creates time, or time creates movement, I don't see any difference.
Saying movement creates time is like saying movement creates space. If I walk across my room am I creating the space I'm walking into? No, so why would I be creating the time?
Hells
#51
Sep3-11, 04:13 PM
P: 30
Quote Quote by ryan_m_b View Post
Who says there's no difference? I was referring to the OPs hypothetical question, not suggesting that there is no difference.
What difference is there then? Educate me. I'm not saying I'm right, just that at my current level of physic knowledge I don't see a difference.

Saying movement creates time is like saying movement creates space.
I don't see the basis for saying that.
petm1
#52
Sep3-11, 05:04 PM
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Time is duration, space is distance, motion is change in relative position over a duration. Time is local, space is global, motion is both. Time is interchangeable with space while motion requires both. There are lots of differences between time and motion these are just a few off the top of my head.
Hells
#53
Sep3-11, 07:53 PM
P: 30
But we define time in movement. For example per " 299 792 458m a photon in vacuum travels", more generally: t =1/"lenght travelled by uniform constant motion" or pr xx rays of a cesium atom, or more old school, a time glass. When we measure motion we just compare it to other form of motions we know are constant. Time is derived from motion

Time is local, space is global, motion is both. Time is interchangeable with space while motion requires both
I assume you refer to time dilation. I thought briefly about it and don't think it changes anything. It's the constants that govern the rate of interaction that are "local". The end result is the same, which is exactly what I'm arguing for :D
petm1
#54
Sep4-11, 12:53 PM
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Time or motion, there can not be movement without the time needed for the change, but having time with no motion happens all the time. Think of a pulsar, we measure a burst of photons and when they stop we will measure the gap between the bursts as if it were moving at the same speed as the photons, a measure of time without motion? How would Morse code work without the constant dilation of time even without a signal?


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