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The idea of anything crossing the event horizon of a black hole from any observer's v

by JesusInACan
Tags: black, event, hole, horizon, observer
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JesusInACan
#1
Oct31-11, 09:55 PM
P: 28
I don't like the idea of anything crossing the event horizon of a black hole from any observer's view point. The closer something gets to the event horizon, it either appears to slow down, or the event horizon appears to stretch and move further away. How can anything cross it?

For this reason, i like the idea that all the energy in a black hole is concentrated in a shell on the surface. This, in turn, leads me to believe that all matter is energy condensed around localized coordinates. Unfortunately, I don't have any citations or math to back me up. I'm curious how much legitimacy there is to these thoughts.
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JesusInACan
#2
Oct31-11, 10:08 PM
P: 28
Also, it seems like this would imply that there is no point where escape is impossible, as nothing crosses the event horizon. This would make it easier to fit black holes into accepted theories of thermodynamics, as information never really becomes inaccessible, just highly fixed.

Now, about their formation. Theoretically, the original "event horizon" would form as a collapsing star compresses two bundles of energy into a small area. Actually, this is likely to happen in many locations near simultaneously. As additional matter approaches these bundles of gravitational energy, the event horizons would stretch and merge, coalescing into the celestial bodies we can "see".

Now a question: suppose an object passes between two of the forming event horizons, would its timeframe be slowed by both gravitational fields or would they cancel out? I am assuming the former, as time dilation is independent of spacial velocity direction.
DaveC426913
#3
Oct31-11, 10:27 PM
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Quote Quote by JesusInACan View Post
I don't like the idea of anything crossing the event horizon of a black hole from any observer's view point. The closer something gets to the event horizon, it either appears to slow down, or the event horizon appears to stretch and move further away. How can anything cross it?
You might like it more if you read up on it a little.

It is only from the point of a distant observer that an object doesn't appear to cross the EH. That's because of the fallible nature of observations by light.

An observer falling into an EH will cross the EH with no untoward effects - afterall, the EH is not a thing at all, nothing actually happens there. It is a derived point at a radius, nearer than which light cannot escape. That means nothing to an infalling observer, and they neither know nor experience anything about it. They could calculate when they'd crossed the EH, just like you could calculate when a trip to the cottage was exactly half over. But nothing changes at the halfway point to the cottage - there's no physical significance to this point.

And after all that, rest assured, the infalling observer will proceed to the singularity in an extremely finite time.

JesusInACan
#4
Oct31-11, 10:47 PM
P: 28
The idea of anything crossing the event horizon of a black hole from any observer's v

So what exactly is time dilation? Doesn't gravity slow each particle's 'clock' as they approach the source? I have been under the impression that as a particle's movement through space increases, its world-line is skewed so that it takes a path almost perpendicular to the time axis. I noticed that the lorentz factor is just a form of pythagoras's theorem stating the hypotenuse as the speed of light and spacial velocity as one side ofthe triangle. I figured spacetime velocity was constant.

Do you have any recommended reading for me?
Matterwave
#5
Oct31-11, 11:19 PM
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The time dilation due to gravity is always an Observer 1 observering observer 2 (in a stronger gravitational field) to have time dilation. To any observer observing his own time, his time MUST click by normally (he cannot, by definition, notice the "time dilation" on himself).

You can see this easily if you think about Einstein's Equivalence principle. No local experiment done in freefall can distinguish whether you are in a gravitational field or not (e.g. you can't tell the difference between just floating out in space, and freefalling in some gravitational field). This means, for the observer free-falling into the black hole, he can't actually tell if he fell through the EH or not at all (assuming he doesn't get "spaghettified"). You can't actually locally measure the curvature of spacetime. You can only measure curvature through tidal forces (this is what causes "spaghettification").

This is particularly apparent if you transform to Eddington-Finklestein coordinates or Kruskal-Szekeres coordinates (pardon the spelling...), where no singularity appears at the Event Horizon. For this reason, we call the event horizon a "coordinate singularity", it's not a real physical singularity.
JesusInACan
#6
Oct31-11, 11:53 PM
P: 28
But relative to the particles ahead of the observer near an event horizon, the distance between the two would be streched. And this would apply to each subsequent particle closer to the horizon. So from any real viewpoint, nothing ever reaches the boundary. Is this different than general relativity? I guess this thinking comes from the idea that space is not a coordinate plane but a measurement of the 'time' it would take a particle to travel to any other particle.

Hope I'm making sense.
JesusInACan
#7
Nov1-11, 12:01 AM
P: 28
I'm sorry, it's late. The measurement i mentioned was energy, not time.
DaleSpam
#8
Nov1-11, 06:45 AM
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Quote Quote by JesusInACan View Post
But relative to the particles ahead of the observer near an event horizon, the distance between the two would be streched. And this would apply to each subsequent particle closer to the horizon. So from any real viewpoint, nothing ever reaches the boundary.
This depends on the mass of the black hole. For an arbitrarily large black hole the tidal effects become arbitrarily small. So you could cross the event horizon of a super massive black hole without noticing any stretching at all.
DaveC426913
#9
Nov1-11, 08:19 AM
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Quote Quote by JesusInACan View Post
But relative to the particles ahead of the observer near an event horizon, the distance between the two would be streched. And this would apply to each subsequent particle closer to the horizon. So from any real viewpoint, nothing ever reaches the boundary. Is this different than general relativity? I guess this thinking comes from the idea that space is not a coordinate plane but a measurement of the 'time' it would take a particle to travel to any other particle.

Hope I'm making sense.
Again, observation of other objects within the black hole's influence does not change one's own path into the black itself.
pervect
#10
Nov1-11, 06:23 PM
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Note that an accelerated observer has an event horizon which is mathematically very similar to the event horizon of a black hole.

It is quite possible to imagine the Earth falling into the Rindler horizon of such an accelerating observer.

The accelerating observer will never see the earth cross the horizon, but the people on the Earth will see it happen at some specific date, say New Years day in 2012.

The accelerated observer watching the Earth fall into the horizon will never see any event beyond this date, i.e. he will only see events before New Years day 2012.

However, it would be quite a mistake for the accelerated observer to conclude from this that "the world ends in 2012", or that "the Earth never falls beyond the horizon".

It seems to me that this is just the mistake you are making, though.
mrspeedybob
#11
Nov1-11, 06:57 PM
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Quote Quote by pervect View Post
Note that an accelerated observer has an event horizon which is mathematically very similar to the event horizon of a black hole.

It is quite possible to imagine the Earth falling into the Rindler horizon of such an accelerating observer.

The accelerating observer will never see the earth cross the horizon, but the people on the Earth will see it happen at some specific date, say New Years day in 2012.

The accelerated observer watching the Earth fall into the horizon will never see any event beyond this date, i.e. he will only see events before New Years day 2012.

However, it would be quite a mistake for the accelerated observer to conclude from this that "the world ends in 2012", or that "the Earth never falls beyond the horizon".

It seems to me that this is just the mistake you are making, though.
From the earths perspective it is a mistake, from the accelerated observers perspective it is not. Reletivity does not describe illusions, it describes things that are actually different for 2 observers. You can't say 1 observer is right and the other is wrong.

The same applies to a black holes event horizon.
Constantin
#12
Nov1-11, 07:44 PM
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Quote Quote by DaveC426913 View Post
It is only from the point of a distant observer that an object doesn't appear to cross the EH. That's because of the fallible nature of observations by light.
It doesn't have to do with "the fallible nature of observations by light". It's simply not considered possible to observe beyond the event horizon.
It also doesn't have to be "from the point of a distant observer". Any observer outside the event horizon will do just fine, no matter how close. That means all observers that exist for us.
Constantin
#13
Nov1-11, 07:55 PM
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Quote Quote by JesusInACan View Post
I don't like the idea of anything crossing the event horizon of a black hole from any observer's view point. The closer something gets to the event horizon, it either appears to slow down, or the event horizon appears to stretch and move further away. How can anything cross it?
That sounds perfectly valid from the point of view of any observer outside the event horizon (which means all observers that exist for us).

If you keep your ideas about black holes simple, and only consider what an outside observer would be able to see, you'll be spared a lot of headaches.
pervect
#14
Nov1-11, 08:00 PM
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Quote Quote by mrspeedybob View Post
From the earths perspective it is a mistake, from the accelerated observers perspective it is not. Reletivity does not describe illusions, it describes things that are actually different for 2 observers. You can't say 1 observer is right and the other is wrong.

The same applies to a black holes event horizon.
In my example, it is a false statement to say that no observer observes events after 2012. So if you are making statements about an observer-independent reality, it is false to say that "you never cross the black horizon", for the very reason that statements that are true and observer independent must be true for all observers.

("Statements about observer independent facts" is my operational defintion of "statements about reality" by the way).

If you qualify the statements, such as "The external observer never sees the object cross the black hole", or "Using the particular notion of simultaneity used by static observers, the time of the event that's simultaneous with the horizon crossing approaches infinity", you'll be OK.

Note that the notion of simultaneity used by moving observers is different from the notion of simultaneity used by static observers. If this isn't obvious, perhaps a different discussion on the "relativity of simultaneity" is in order.

So saying "it never happens" is false, because for some observers it does happen.
DaveC426913
#15
Nov1-11, 08:17 PM
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Quote Quote by Constantin View Post
It doesn't have to do with "the fallible nature of observations by light".
Sorry, I was oversimplifying. Two observers in relativity will not agree in the same sequence of events.

This gets worse the farther apart they are. However, if one spaceship followed immediately behind another into the BH, the apparent discrepancy in events would be correspondingly reduced.

Quote Quote by Constantin View Post
It's simply not considered possible to observe beyond the event horizon.
It also doesn't have to be "from the point of a distant observer". Any observer outside the event horizon will do just fine, no matter how close. That means all observers that exist for us.
The OP seems to be seeing a discontinuity between what is observed from outside the BH and what occurs at the EH. The discontinuity will resolve itself to the observer who gets closer and closer to the object about to enter the EH.

To point where, if the observer is pulls up parallel to the initial object (i.e. distance reduced to zero) as it enters the EH, they will not observe the object experiencing this halting at the EH.
zonde
#16
Nov3-11, 05:22 AM
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Quote Quote by JesusInACan View Post
I don't like the idea of anything crossing the event horizon of a black hole from any observer's view point. The closer something gets to the event horizon, it either appears to slow down, or the event horizon appears to stretch and move further away. How can anything cross it?

For this reason, i like the idea that all the energy in a black hole is concentrated in a shell on the surface. This, in turn, leads me to believe that all matter is energy condensed around localized coordinates. Unfortunately, I don't have any citations or math to back me up. I'm curious how much legitimacy there is to these thoughts.
If you don't buy the idea that anything can cross event horizon then there is no reason to believe that there are object that we can describe as black holes.
So your idea about "shell black holes" seems contradictory.
Constantin
#17
Nov3-11, 06:10 AM
P: 95
Quote Quote by zonde View Post
If you don't buy the idea that anything can cross event horizon then there is no reason to believe that there are object that we can describe as black holes.
I see no logic in what you're saying.
You can consider that nothing passes through the event horizon, and still have reason to believe that there are black holes.

The fact that nothing passes through the event horizon can be a simplification by considering only what an observer can see, and not bothering with what happens but we can't see.
The existence of black holes is not about personal belief, as many were discovered. In the case of Sagittarius A, situated in the center of our galaxy, the evidence is very strong for it being a supermassive black hole.
zonde
#18
Nov3-11, 08:22 AM
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Quote Quote by Constantin View Post
I see no logic in what you're saying.
You can consider that nothing passes through the event horizon, and still have reason to believe that there are black holes.
The logic is simple - if nothing passes event horizon of some hypothetical seed black hole then it can't grow it's mass and expand it's EH.

Quote Quote by Constantin View Post
The fact that nothing passes through the event horizon can be a simplification by considering only what an observer can see, and not bothering with what happens but we can't see.
The existence of black holes is not about personal belief, as many were discovered. In the case of Sagittarius A, situated in the center of our galaxy, the evidence is very strong for it being a supermassive black hole.
About what kind of evidence you are talking? There is very massive object at the center of Milky Way. And that's about it.
What specific evidence we can have to claim that this very massive object has something like event horizon?


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