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As per Japanese physicist (Masahiro Hotta), energy teleporation is possible

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DrChinese
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Nov11-11, 09:07 AM
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Quote Quote by yoron View Post
...

As for the entanglement? Doesn't the measurement define all of it? If 'A' measure a momentum, won't 'A:s' interaction with the entanglement, measuring it, impart a added momentum, and also redefine the momentum for 'B' after he received the message that he can start his?
1. The RESULTS of Bob's measurement is 100% predictable if made after Alice's, and 100% UNpredictable if made before Alice's. That assumes they are measuring on the SAME BASIS. This is simply a restatement of the HUP.

2. On the other hand, when measuring on a different (non-commuting) basis: The RESULTS of Bob's measurement is 100% UNpredictable (i.e. no better than chance) even if made AFTER Alice's and you send Alice's results to Bob in advance. This is too simply a restatement of the HUP.

3. QM says that the results of measurements of entangled A and B are themselves independent of time ordering. This has been experimentally verified. See 1. again and you will realize that when you combine Alice's and Bob's results, this is ALWAYS the case. That is because when they measure on the same basis, the results are completely redundant! When they measure on a different basis, the results are completely random! So ordering obviously does not change the outcome.

4. Keep in mind that every pair of A and B is fully independent of all other A+B pairs. So if you need information for 1 pair, you will need to get fresh information for other pairs. That is because each pair has random values, I am sure you can see this will be true if they are entangled (it is practically definitional).

5. There is NO ENERGY BEING INJECTED AND TELEPORTED ANYWHERE FROM A MEASUREMENT APPARATUS. That is a misunderstanding, plain and simple, despite what you are reading from Hotta. Again, the terminology is what is confusing. You cannot push A and feel it at B, or something similar. This is NOT a part of QM, and there is no evidence or hint of evidence for this concept. The "energy" being teleported has to do with the system of A+B, and has nothing to do with the measuring device at A injecting something into that system which is received at B. I believe that in the example, we are talking about a measuring device which is simply a passive polarizer - which is obviously incapable of adding energy.
yoron
#74
Nov11-11, 09:44 AM
P: 244
As for "There is NO ENERGY BEING INJECTED AND TELEPORTED ANYWHERE FROM A MEASUREMENT APPARATUS." I agree totally, never have said anything else? What I'm talking about is not Hotta there, just about what happens as you measure a entanglement, that is 'interact' with it.

I assume that the interaction will add a momentum to your entanglement, and also, as you can't differ/split the 'wave function' without interfering, that this 'added momentum' will exist at all 'places' of the entanglement, meaning 'both sides'. I'm not discussing Hotta at all there.

The question is: is it so that a measurement of a entanglement will add a momentum in the interaction by your measuring.

If not, how do it do it?

If it do, then it seems to me that we always inject 'momentum/energy' in our measurements.
=

When it comes to injecting 'energy' in general.

I presume that you see 2. "On the other hand, when measuring on a different (non-commuting) basis: The RESULTS of Bob's measurement is 100% UNpredictable (i.e. no better than chance) even if made AFTER Alice's and you send Alice's results to Bob in advance. This is too simply a restatement of the HUP." as the definition of why a 'timer' won't work here?

When it comes to sending a code, or something where a 'decoder' is needed you always need a sub channel for each entanglement. I'm just not sure that this argument works for 'work', as this 'energy seems to become in his description? There is no decoder needed as I think of it, what is needed is just knowing the intervals between measuring the entanglements for the 'receiver', relative the 'sender'.
yoron
#75
Nov11-11, 09:56 AM
P: 244
Yeah DA, better see this as an 'idealised' thought experiment. It's extremely hard to imagine it any other way as gravity is 'everywhere', and clocks will differ relative the observer. So, uniformly moving, at rest with each other, of the exact same gravity, etc :)

As for entanglements 'propagating information' I never said they did? The initial 'message' I'm discussing is through a sub-channel, slower that light, or lights speed in a vacuum.

I don't see a entanglement that way, as I said a description I like was the one of 'one particle'. I can go with a 'wave function' describing it too though, as long as we then assume it to be in a pristine 'superposition' prior to the measurement, with 'both sides' falling out in the interaction/measurement, no matter if the side not making that initial measuring, will measure it later, or not.
DrChinese
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Nov11-11, 10:41 AM
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Quote Quote by yoron View Post
...I assume that the interaction will add a momentum to your entanglement, and also, as you can't differ/split the 'wave function' without interfering, that this 'added momentum' will exist at all 'places' of the entanglement, meaning 'both sides'. I'm not discussing Hotta at all there.

The question is: is it so that a measurement of a entanglement will add a momentum in the interaction by your measuring.
Nope, generally this is not the case (although there are some complex exceptions that are really not relevant to this discussion). Once there is a measurement on an entangled particle, it ceases to act entangled! (At the very least, on that basis.) So you might potentially get a new entangled pair [A plus its measuring apparatus] but that does not make [A plus its measuring apparatus plus B] become entangled. Instead, you terminate the entangled connection between A and B.

You cannot EVER say specifically that you can do something to entangled A that changes B in any specific way. For all the evidence, you can just as easily say B changed A in EVERY case! This is regardless of the ordering, as I keep pointing out. There is NO sense in QM entanglement that ordering changes anything in the results of measurements. Again, this has been demonstrated experimentally.

My last paragraph, if you accept it, should convince you that your hypothesis is untenable. Because you are thinking measuring A can impart momentum to the A+B system, when I say it is just as likely that it would be B's later measurement doing the same thing. (Of course neither happens in this sense.) Because time ordering is irrelevant in QM but would need to matter to make your idea be feasible.
pranj5
#77
Nov11-11, 11:16 AM
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Quote Quote by DrChinese View Post
There is no science - theory or experiment - indicating there is a technique for pulling useful energy from the vacuum. Nothing you quoted or elsewhere in the literature contradicts this statement. The law of conservation of total energy forbids this. You cannot end up with more energy than you started with, and nowhere has Hotta suggested otherwise.
Nobody denies that. Hotta clearly said that energy at B can be extracted only when there is an input at A. SO, WHY ARGUING?
Quote Quote by DrChinese View Post
There is no science - theory or experiment - indicating there is a technique for "teleporting" useful energy from point A to point B faster than light. Nothing you quoted or elsewhere in the literature contradicts this statement. Hotta's technique for "quantum energy teleportation" requires a classical communication channel to function. To quote Hotta: "Recently, negative energy physics has yielded a quantum protocol called quantum energy teleportation (QET) in which energy can be transported using only local operations and classical communication (LOCC) without breaking causality and local energy conservation."
Another quote from Hotta"
Amazingly, the QET protocol can transport energy from A to B in a time scale much shorter than that of the usual transportation.
Quote Quote by DrChinese View Post
On the other hand, there is theory and experiment for "teleporting" useful energy from point A to point B at speeds at or near the speed of light, and those have been known for decades. An example is a laser, which has been around for about 50 years.
We are discussing quantum energy teleportation here, NOT CLASSICAL.
Quote Quote by DrChinese View Post
pranj5, there is a difference between accepted science (what I have given above) and your speculation based on Hotta's work. I can cite you plenty of papers that give exciting and interesting results which hint of all kinds of things - such as retrocausal action. And yet there is still no theoretical assertions that retrocausal action is possible. That is simply a parallel. In the case of Hotta, we are fascinated by the idea that essentially, you invest something into the vacuum at one point and extract it at another. And Hotta shows that is in keeping with QM. If so, fine, but understand that the principles of QM are respected at all times - including conservation and classical limits of causality.

You need to either accept that yours is pure speculation, or stop talking about it here. PhysicsForums is for science.
Before Fermi made the first atomic energy based experimental power plant, E=MC2 was also a "speculation" as per your terminology, BUT SPECULATION BASED ON SCIENCE.
Well, can you explain how Quantum computers respect "classical limits of causality". As per wikipedia, Quantum Computers can perform computation much much faster than classical computers and it need a classical computer of huge memory and RAM to perform the same actions which are just unachievable with present technologies.
DrChinese
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Nov11-11, 11:35 AM
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Quote Quote by pranj5 View Post
Before Fermi made the first atomic energy based experimental power plant, E=MC2 was also a "speculation" as per your terminology, BUT SPECULATION BASED ON SCIENCE.
Hey, you aren't Fermi. Or Einstein. And there is not a lick of science to support your speculations (which is not Hotta's, as he is not prone to the speculation you seem to employ).
yoron
#79
Nov11-11, 02:53 PM
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You wrote "You cannot EVER say specifically that you can do something to entangled A that changes B in any specific way. For all the evidence, you can just as easily say B changed A in EVERY case! This is regardless of the ordering, as I keep pointing out. There is NO sense in QM entanglement that ordering changes anything in the results of measurements. Again, this has been demonstrated experimentally."

So if I choose to measure its momentum I don't define it in a special way, as compared to measuring a spin for example? Mixing in relativity we can get a uncertanity relative a third observer, but his relation as a observer seems to me weaker than the role 'A' and 'B' takes measuring. And between 'A' and 'B', that do the actual deed, there should be no confusion to whom was the first to do it, assuming 'A' informing 'B' via a sub-channel as he do the initial measuring.

Looked at as a wave function you collapse it in your initial measurement, that sets the 'state' for the whole entanglement, as I see it (or 'particle':) and if a measurement exert a 'force' on what it measures (interaction) then I wonder where that momentum goes, if it doesn't exist on 'both sides'. Seems like a collision of terms if you want a interaction as a measurement to exist, without it imparting any momentum/energy? But I'm not sure, and if you know how to define a interaction without imparting a momentum I'm curious.
yoron
#80
Nov11-11, 03:16 PM
P: 244
The point I see here is that we're talking about 'energy'. It is a addition of 'work' for 'B', assuming that 'A:s' measurement indeed impart a momentum/energy in the collapse of the wave function. And energy is something you can use, not needing it to 'make sense' first, as I think of it that is. And that's where the 'timer' comes in for me, relative a initial sub-channel light message. Assuming only one entanglement, and message, you only need to define if there is, or is not, a addition of momentum in the entanglement through the initial measurement though.

It might be that there are different definitions, in where we always need to 'make sense' of it, before using it though, but then I would like a example showing me why, and how, we do that. And it's not really Hotta, although he had some ideas of how to lift that 'energy' out.
bohm2
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Nov11-11, 04:02 PM
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This is confusing me. With respect to quantum teleportation, the advantage would be one can quickly and reliably move around quantum information via electromagnetic signals and material particles (electrons, light, etc.). That would be useful in the future in stuff like quantum computers, etc. If accurate, what would be the implications of quantum energy teleportation with respect to using this "energy" be? Would it be for long-distance transportation of quantum information in quantum computers, quantum nanodevices, etc.?
aspades
#82
Nov11-11, 04:40 PM
P: 3
Since this paper has been published new scientist published an article saying light has been transported across a room through pairs of entangled particles.
DrChinese
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Nov11-11, 05:14 PM
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Quote Quote by yoron View Post
You wrote "You cannot EVER say specifically that you can do something to entangled A that changes B in any specific way. For all the evidence, you can just as easily say B changed A in EVERY case! This is regardless of the ordering, as I keep pointing out. There is NO sense in QM entanglement that ordering changes anything in the results of measurements. Again, this has been demonstrated experimentally."

So if I choose to measure its momentum I don't define it in a special way, as compared to measuring a spin for example? Mixing in relativity we can get a uncertanity relative a third observer, but his relation as a observer seems to me weaker than the role 'A' and 'B' takes measuring. And between 'A' and 'B', that do the actual deed, there should be no confusion to whom was the first to do it, assuming 'A' informing 'B' via a sub-channel as he do the initial measuring.

Looked at as a wave function you collapse it in your initial measurement, that sets the 'state' for the whole entanglement, as I see it (or 'particle':) and if a measurement exert a 'force' on what it measures (interaction) then I wonder where that momentum goes, if it doesn't exist on 'both sides'. Seems like a collision of terms if you want a interaction as a measurement to exist, without it imparting any momentum/energy? But I'm not sure, and if you know how to define a interaction without imparting a momentum I'm curious.
The issue is that your idea of entanglement does not mesh with what actually happens. If you do something to A, nothing changes at B. Ever - at least as far as we know. All you can say is that the results from measurements at A and B will be consistent with the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle (HUP). Measurements at A and B can be at any time or place, and this will be true.

It is true that when A collapses first, it sets the wave state for B. However, and this is the point that is hard to grasp, it is equally true that when B is measured AFTER A, B sets the wave state for A. There is no possible experiment which will yield a different result. Any other description is one which a convenience for our language. A does not "cause" B in any strict meaningful sense of the word. Only the entire context matters, and that is why order of measurements is not important.

If you work through an actual example using 2 polarization entangled photons, it will probably be easier to follow. Then you will see better WHY I am repeating the points I keep making. Would you like me to show you?
bohm2
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Nov11-11, 05:19 PM
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Quote Quote by aspades View Post
Since this paper has been published new scientist published an article saying light has been transported across a room through pairs of entangled particles.
Is it this one?

Teleportation of Nonclassical Wave Packets of Light

We report on the experimental quantum teleportation of strongly nonclassical wave packets of light. To perform this full quantum operation while preserving and retrieving the fragile nonclassicality of the input state, we have developed a broadband, zero-dispersion teleportation apparatus that works in conjunction with time-resolved state preparation equipment. Our approach brings within experimental reach a whole new set of hybrid protocols involving discrete- and continuous-variable techniques in quantum information processing for optical sciences.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/332/6027/330.abstract
DrChinese
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Nov11-11, 05:21 PM
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Quote Quote by bohm2 View Post
This is confusing me. With respect to quantum teleportation, the advantage would be one can quickly and reliably move around quantum information via electromagnetic signals and material particles (electrons, light, etc.). That would be useful in the future in stuff like quantum computers, etc. If accurate, what would be the implications of quantum energy teleportation with respect to using this "energy" be? Would it be for long-distance transportation of quantum information in quantum computers, quantum nanodevices, etc.?
It is not clear to me that there is an implication, because there are already experiments which show a lot of quantum FTL effects (entanglement swapping being an example). Hotta seems to see an angle I don't, but that is hardly surprising (he's the expert). I would strongly urge everyone following this thread to be very cautious with the term "quantum energy teleportation" as this is seriously misleading.
bohm2
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Nov11-11, 05:47 PM
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Quote Quote by DrChinese View Post
Hotta seems to see an angle I don't, but that is hardly surprising (he's the expert). I would strongly urge everyone following this thread to be very cautious with the term "quantum energy teleportation" as this is seriously misleading.
I'm lost. What is your hunch about their meaning of "quantum energy"? Don't they mean the zero-point energy? I'm asking because this is what they write:

In this counterintuitive protocol, the counterpart of the classical "transmission line" is a quantum mechanical many-body system in the vacuum state (i.e., a correlated system formed by vacuum state entanglement. The key lies using this correlated system (hereinafter, the quantum correlation channel) to exploit the zero-point energy of the vacuum state, which stems from zero-point fluctuations (i.e., nonvanishing vacuum fluctuations) originating from the uncertainty principle. This energy, however, cannot be conventionally extracted as that would require a state with lower energy than vacuum—a contradiction. In fact, no local operation can extract energy from vacuum, but must instead inject energy; this property is called passivity. According to QET, however, if we limit only the local vacuum state instead of all the vacuum states, the passivity of the local vacuum state can be destroyed and a part of the zero-point energy can in fact be extracted.
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/...109.2203v1.pdf
pranj5
#87
Nov11-11, 07:54 PM
P: 45
Quote Quote by DrChinese View Post
Hey, you aren't Fermi. Or Einstein. And there is not a lick of science to support your speculations (which is not Hotta's, as he is not prone to the speculation you seem to employ).
And you are not the ultimate authority to announce what is "science" and what is "speculation". Just keep that to yourself.
M.Hotta
#88
Nov12-11, 02:04 AM
P: 3
Hi! I'm Hotta. My friend emailed me about this thread. I'm glad to know you all have interest of my QET. However, you seem confused a little bit. Dr.Chinese looks like understand fairly well, though some part he also misunderstands.

I'm a theorist, not an experimentalist. I can not do experiments to verify my QET theory. My colleagues have a plan to do the exp, but, unfortunately, on 3.11 of this year, our university was severely affected by an big earthquake. This generated a big tsunami that killed a lot of people and a serious nuclear power plant accident. Now we are doing much effort to recover our research activity, though that seems very long-way. It is good for me that somebody will try the QET experiment in USA or other countries.

In order to understand QET precisely, please read my review article: http://www.tuhep.phys.tohoku.ac.jp/~...qet-review.pdf
The energy is 'teleported', just in an operational sense, as seen in p6-p8 of the above review.
If you see a process described in the pages, you say the energy is truly 'teleported' from a viewpoint of users, don't you? (Please see page 21.) The energy of information carriers, which Dr.Chinese worried about, is not important. Bob obtains energy of information carriers plus additional energy from local vacuum by generating a negative-energy wave packet of the quantum field.

In order to understand the meaning of the teleported energy deeply, we should recall two points, I think. The first is the fact that any energy has no tag which shows where it was stored, just like pure water. (Anyone cannot make distinction between pure water on earth and pure water on moon.) The second is the famous Wheeler's viewpoint about many particles. J. A. Wheeler came up with an exotic idea about electron and positron (anti-electron), and proposed it to Feynman. He imagined that one particle is doing a zigzag motion in our spacetime, and that it is electrons when it propagates forward in time, positrons when propagates backward in time. Actually, we have many electrons and positrons in our world, but he said they are a single particle. His picture could explain why all electrons have the same mass and charge. (As you know, the current precise explanation about that is provided by quantum field theory, not his own idea. ) In a similar way, we can regard a part of the energy Alice injects as the energy Bob extracts. Let us imagine that, after a one-round protocol of QET, the negative energy that Bob generates in the quantum field moves to the positive energy injected by Alice and merges ( partially pair-annihilated ). Then, the energy shows a zig-zag motion in the spacetime, like the electron of Wheeler. In this sence, it becomes meaningless to discuss distinction between the energy Bob obtains and a part of the energy Alice injects. What we can do is just to say that energy is transported in an operational sense via classical communication. Thus, I called this as energy teleportation. (As you know, a very similar situation happens when you say that energy of the Hawking radiation comes from inside a black hole event horizon and the black hole loses its energy.)

I would like to respond all comments here, but have no enough time. Please email me if you have a question about QET, though afraid that the response delay will often takes place, sorry.
pranj5
#89
Nov12-11, 02:26 AM
P: 45
Quote Quote by M.Hotta View Post
Hi! I'm Hotta. My friend emailed me about this thread. I'm glad to know you all have interest of my QET. However, you seem confused a little bit. Dr.Chinese looks like understand fairly well, though some part he also misunderstands.

I'm a theorist, not an experimentalist. I can not do experiments to verify my QET theory. My colleagues have a plan to do the exp, but, unfortunately, on 3.11 of this year, our university was severely affected by an big earthquake. This generated a big tsunami that killed a lot of people and a serious nuclear power plant accident. Now we are doing much effort to recover our research activity, though that seems very long-way. It is good for me that somebody will try the QET experiment in USA or other countries.

In order to understand QET precisely, please read my review article: http://www.tuhep.phys.tohoku.ac.jp/~...qet-review.pdf
The energy is 'teleported', just in a operational sense, as seen p6-p8 of the above review.
If you see a process described in the pages, you say the energy is truly 'teleported' from a viewpoint of users, don't you? (Please see page 21.) The energy of information carriers, which Dr.Chinese worried about, is not important. Bob obtains energy of information carriers plus additional energy from local vacuum by generating a negative-energy wave packet of the quantum field.

In order to understand the meaning of the teleported energy deeply, we should recall two points, I think. The first is the fact that any energy has no tag which shows where it was stored, just like pure water. (Anyone cannot make distinction between pure water on earth and pure water on moon.) The second is the famous Wheeler's viewpoint about many particles. J. A. Wheeler came up with an exotic idea about electron and positron (anti-electron), and proposed it to Feynman. He imagined that one particle is doing a zigzag motion in our spacetime, and that it is electrons when it propagates forward in time, positrons when propagates backward in time. Actually, we have many electrons and positrons in our world, but he said they are a single particle. His picture could explain why all electrons have the same mass and charge. (As you know, the current precise explanation about that is provided by quantum field theory, not his own idea. ) In a similar way, we can regard a part of the energy Alice injects as the energy Bob extracts. Let us imagine that, after a one-round protocol of QET, the negative energy that Bob generates in the quantum field moves to the positive energy injected by Alice and merges ( partially pair-annihilated ). Then, the energy shows a zig-zag motion in the spacetime, like the electron of Wheeler. In this sence, it becomes meaningless to discuss distinction between the energy Bob obtains and a part of the energy Alice injects. What we can do is just to say that energy is transported in an operational sense via classical communication. Thus, I called this as energy teleportation. (As you know, a very similar situation happens when you say that energy of the Hawking radiation comes from inside a black hole event horizon and the black hole loses its energy.)

I would like to respond all comments here, but have no enough time. Please email me if you have a question about QET, though afraid that the response delay will often takes place, sorry.
Hello Prof. Hotta,
Glad to have you in this forum. Whatsoever, I want to ask you the same question that I have asked you in my e-mail to you (to the e-mail address given on your papers). I am curious to know that 1) whether this QET phenomenon can be used as substitute to classical channel communication and 2) whether the classical channel is an integral part of the process or not. If Alice can inject energy at A and Bob can extract that at B and if the process is continuous i.e. Alice just started his "energy" pumping apparatus and Bob kept his own machine on, then why every time some kind of classical communication is necessary. Just think of a scenario when Alice just communicated to Bob (via classical channel) that "I have started" and Bob started his own apparatus. Then is the classical channel necessary after every pulse of energy injection?
M.Hotta
#90
Nov12-11, 03:30 AM
P: 3
1) whether this QET phenomenon can be used as substitute to classical channel communication

ANS. The amount of 'teleported' energy becomes quite small, as the distance becomes macroscopically large. Thus, QET is not suitalble for macroscopic energy transfer like classical channel communication. QET is a small-world phenomenon, like processes in quantum devices.

2) whether the classical channel is an integral part of the process or not.
ANS. The classical channel for announcement of the measurement result is one of key ingredients of QET. This ensures that QET satisfies causality and prohibits superluminal (faster-than-light) energy transfer. What Dr.Chinese said about that is precisely correct.


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