The "more political thread" besides "Japan Earthquake: nuclear plants" scientific one


by jlduh
Tags: scientific
Jim Lagerfeld
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#631
Jan13-12, 03:00 AM
P: 42
A better map of Austria:
http://www.progettohumus.it/include/...pa/PLATE10.PDF

And detailed maps for the rest of Europe if you are interested:
http://www.progettohumus.it/chernobyl.php?name=mappe2

Not sure the best way to go about making comparisons with the Japanese maps as the European ones only ever seem to show CS-137, and I also saw it said somewhere that the ratio of CS134 to 137 was quite different between the two accidents?
Borek
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#632
Jan13-12, 03:04 AM
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nikkkom
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#633
Jan13-12, 03:17 AM
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Quote Quote by Jim Lagerfeld View Post
Not sure the best way to go about making comparisons with the Japanese maps as the European ones only ever seem to show CS-137, and I also saw it said somewhere that the ratio of CS134 to 137 was quite different between the two accidents?
Very roughly, initially the dose from both isotopes is about the same. Cs-134 has lower fission yield, but is more active than Cs-137.

By now, Chernobyl's Cs-134 is gone - almost all has decayed.
Jim Lagerfeld
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#634
Jan13-12, 03:34 AM
P: 42
Quote Quote by nikkkom View Post
Very roughly, initially the dose from both isotopes is about the same. Cs-134 has lower fission yield, but is more active than Cs-137.

By now, Chernobyl's Cs-134 is gone - almost all has decayed.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I mean that I have read that the initial ratio differed between the two accidents. 0.5 or 0.6 to 1 Cs-134:Cs-137 in Chernobyl, closer to 1:1 in Fukushima.

This paper gives the 0.6 :1 value: http://www.irpa.net/irpa7/cdrom/VOL.3/S3_146.PDF

But the Tokyo figures are much closer to 1:1 in the immediate aftermath
http://monitoring.tokyo-eiken.go.jp/...past_data.html
tsutsuji
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#635
Jan13-12, 01:17 PM
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http://www.kantei.go.jp/foreign/noda...6kaiken_e.html The English translation of Prime minister Noda's 16 December "cold shutdown" press conference is now available.
Yamanote
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#636
Jan13-12, 02:03 PM
P: 68
Thanks for the information, especially to Jim!

It would be interesting to compare this with a current contamination map of Japan, but I seem to be too stupid to find one...
Sorai
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#637
Jan13-12, 04:41 PM
P: 16
Quote Quote by Yamanote View Post
Thanks for the information, especially to Jim!

It would be interesting to compare this with a current contamination map of Japan, but I seem to be too stupid to find one...
The ones that have been translated are here:

http://radioactivity.mext.go.jp/en/m...ne_monitoring/

And then there is this one, but it's in Japanese:

http://ramap.jaea.go.jp/map/map.html
Yamanote
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#638
Jan13-12, 05:00 PM
P: 68
Thanks again, great forum!

Although I am checking the MEXT page regularly, I missed this part completely.
clancy688
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#639
Jan15-12, 07:00 AM
P: 546
Map for Cs-137 deposition in Germany. The fallout in southern Germany is not so different to the Fukushima fallout southeast of Fukushima prefecture (is that Gunma and Tochigi prefecture?).

http://www.environmental-studies.de/rad_1.1.jpg

(Btw: Wouldn't this particular discussion fit better in the "contamination and consequences" thread?)
Yamanote
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#640
Jan15-12, 02:20 PM
P: 68
Quote Quote by clancy688 View Post
(Btw: Wouldn't this particular discussion fit better in the "contamination and consequences" thread?)
I agree. Comparing the discussions about Fukushima in different countries turned into a comparison about contamination somehow. Sorry for that.

PS: South of Fukushima prefecture are Ibaraki, Tochigi and Gunma (Ibaraki is at the coast, Gunma is in the center and Tochigi is between them).
zapperzero
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#641
Jan16-12, 08:55 AM
P: 1,030
Dunno what thread this should go into. Perhaps "contamination and consequences"? Maybe "performance"?

Anyway. TEPCO is threatened with a suit for damages by its own shareholders. In response, it has issued a document stating that board members do not hold any responsibility for the disaster and its aftermath:

"The board members had appropriately considered and implemented anti-tsunami measures based on government instructions and approvals, [...]The accident is attributable to the tsunami waves that were far higher than assumed for the measures."
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/tep...ima-2012-01-16

disgusting, but expected.
Yamanote
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#642
Jan18-12, 12:15 PM
P: 68
Quote Quote by zapperzero View Post
disgusting, but expected.
I fully agree with you. But I don't consider this as a typical Japanese or Tepco issue, it's more an issue of human beings in general and would happen in a very similar way everywhere in the world. Unfortunately...
Caniche
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#643
Jan18-12, 03:57 PM
P: 106
Quote Quote by Yamanote View Post
I fully agree with you. But I don't consider this as a typical Japanese or Tepco issue, it's more an issue of human beings in general and would happen in a very similar way everywhere in the world. Unfortunately...
"human beings in general"More like " oops there goes my performance related bonus" Unless I can shift this ****
tsutsuji
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#644
Jan23-12, 09:11 AM
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Quote Quote by tsutsuji View Post
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-..._gijiroku.html NHK requested the public release of the conference minutes of the accident response headquarters that was set up on March 15 between the government and Tepco in Tepco's Tokyo main office. But there isn't any. The NISA said: "as it was meant as an information sharing measure, no conference minutes were taken, nor any sound record". According to a specialist, this will hinder the study and the learning of the lessons from this accident.
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-..._gijiroku.html Chief Cabinet Secretary Osamu Fujimura said that he is studying how the conference minutes of the accident response headquarters (whose chairman is the Prime Minister) can be reconstituted, as they are a requirement of the National Archive Law.

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/...dm066000c.html "residents within a radius of 170 kilometers or more of the plant would be forced to move out, while those within a radius of 250 km of the plant, including Tokyo, would be allowed to leave if they wish" : government worst case scenario dated March 25, 2011.
Caniche
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#645
Jan23-12, 05:17 PM
P: 106
Quote Quote by tsutsuji View Post
http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/genpatsu-..._gijiroku.html Chief Cabinet Secretary Osamu Fujimura said that he is studying how the conference minutes of the accident response headquarters (whose chairman is the Prime Minister) can be reconstituted, as they are a requirement of the National Archive Law.

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/...dm066000c.html "residents within a radius of 170 kilometers or more of the plant would be forced to move out, while those within a radius of 250 km of the plant, including Tokyo, would be allowed to leave if they wish" : government worst case scenario dated March 25, 2011.
Worth a second look and more
zapperzero
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#646
Jan24-12, 04:29 AM
P: 1,030
http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/news/...dm144000c.html
Japanese industry minister Yukio Edano on Tuesday apologized for the government's failure to take minutes of meetings of a taskforce dealing with the Fukushima nuclear crisis and said that he has instructed the Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency to compile them soon based on notes taken by meeting attendees
How very convenient.
Yamanote
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#647
Jan25-12, 05:10 PM
P: 68
Quote Quote by Caniche View Post
Worth a second look and more

Indeed, looks like a kind of "Three Wise Monkeys" syndrome:
"It contained such shocking content that we decided to treat it as if it never existed," a senior government official said.
etudiant
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#648
Jan26-12, 06:31 PM
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Quote Quote by Caniche View Post
"human beings in general"More like " oops there goes my performance related bonus" Unless I can shift this ****
I think that is not right.
The reality is that Japan had a disaster which could not be averted or mitigated in any meaningful way.
Sure, they could have evacuated Tokyo... where to and for how long?? At what cost in human lives and ruined communities?

It seems to me that Japan has managed this debacle rather well, the country is functioning again, after the worst double whammy in a millenium and the problems are really pretty minimal, at most claimed to be a few percent increase in the eventual cancer rate in a society where cancer is eventually found in half the population already.
Would we do as well if the Ramapo fault caused a serious problem with the Indian Point reactors just up the river from NYC?


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