Explanation time dilation/duration by a force maybe


by digi99
Tags: dilation or duration, explanation, force, time
digi99
digi99 is offline
#1
Mar8-12, 07:33 PM
P: 183
I suppose if you try to explain the existing theory, with a thought, this is not against the forum rules..

So far as I know is our clock based on the rotation of the earth. So our time has defined in that way. Everywhere on earth is our clock running in the same rate.

Suppose somebody is stationary in space somewhere and is observing our earth which has a speed compared to that person. Suppose that person has synchronised his clock in some way on a moment. That person would see dilated time and length contraction observing our earth from that personís location (and vice versa because of symmetry, in fact based on the speed difference, for both the same).

Suppose our earth would get a higher speed. I would think that person would observe a slower rotation and a higher dilated time. Both could be explained by a force observed by the observer, as well for the rotation of the earth as physically (down to atom level) for all kind of clocks which would be running slower. And like on the earth with the old speed, also on the earth everywhere with the new higher speed. Light waves emitted from earth would be influenced too by that force in ration (suppose very small mass) and would travel lesser distances (but lesser distances / slower time = still the light speed c). Relativistic Doppler would be observed.

Indeed is at the same moment the duration observed smaller with a higher speed than with a lower speed (suppose two earthís with different speeds for the observer). Because of the force everything will be observed slower.

Is duration in this way difficult to understand or do I see something wrong again?
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Vorde
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#2
Mar9-12, 09:45 PM
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It doesn't work. One of the postulates of relativity is that every reference frame is equally valid. Even if there was just one other observer, for them to notice relativistic effects (in your theory), we would have to experience a force, which we would feel. But since every reference frame is valid, there are an infinite amount of observers viewing us right now that all see different amounts of dilation in action, which means we would have to be experiencing an infinite amount of force, always, and in every direction.
digi99
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#3
Mar13-12, 12:05 PM
P: 183
Quote Quote by Vorde View Post
It doesn't work. One of the postulates of relativity is that every reference frame is equally valid. Even if there was just one other observer, for them to notice relativistic effects (in your theory), we would have to experience a force, which we would feel. But since every reference frame is valid, there are an infinite amount of observers viewing us right now that all see different amounts of dilation in action, which means we would have to be experiencing an infinite amount of force, always, and in every direction.
Thanks for your answer Vorde. This is just to eliminate maybe a possibility for myself (and others maybe).

I understood in this forum that observers see things different. For any observer we choose his/her rest frame.

So every observer has a different relative speed to the target object. For the target object time runs normal, but time seen for the observer will change, so time dilation.

You don't say time dilation is the sum of all time dilations seen by different observers. Every observer sees only one time dilation because of his/her different relative speed in his/her rest frame.

Mass seems to be also relative speed depended, so how greater the relative speed how more force has to be used to reach a higher relative speed, all seen and measured by the observer.

So a clock will run slower because of that greater force, a light wave emitted from the target object will go "slower" (but its travelled distance will be lesser for the observer, so still c measured).

Time in empty space has no meaning, its just the time you would measure for some object, so when something is really moving and is really there, like a clock.

Because of that force an observer sees length contraction, because of that force down to atom level something will be smaller in his/her observation world.

Than you have the question, you see only length contraction in the moving direction of the target object, but in other directions relative to the target object too?

All atoms/photons undergoes length contraction in the moving direction. Does it matter in which direction an object is pointing while moving? So an emitted light wave from the target object undergoes time dilation in all directions (Doppler Effect).

Is it strange that there is time dilation in any direction from the target object? No, because all clocks have the same speed in the moving direction of the target object, so they all are running slower at any point.

The target object has a constant speed, so the force is not felt anymore (no acceleration).

But again I can see things wrong, thats why I am on this forum to learn ...

Vorde
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#4
Mar13-12, 05:00 PM
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Explanation time dilation/duration by a force maybe


I can't understand all of what you are saying, but I think I can identify a problem in your hypothesis. Mainly that time dilation/length contraction can be seen as an altering of the fabric of space time, different people see it in different ways. But a force is a physical interaction, if one person sees it everybody sees it.

I disagree with the notion that time has no meaning in empty space, but that isn't directly related so I won't worry about it.

To sum up, time dilation and length contraction can be seen as 'meta-universe' effects, which is why we don't notice ourselves undergoing these effects, but force is an 'in-universe effect', and we would notice it.

After writing this though, It came to my mind that force does in a way cause time dilation. Being near a massive object causes time to slow down (from the view of outside observers), this is called gravitational time dilation. However, in GR, an acceleration due to a force and the pull of gravity are viewed as being quasi-interchangeable, so you could say a force (via acceleration) does cause time dilation. But this is definitely a different thing than what you are suggesting and furthermore I'm not sure If I'm using incorrect definitions that would render this last paragraph wrong, I know certain things are defined differently in GR.
digi99
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#5
Mar20-12, 01:54 PM
P: 183
Quote Quote by Vorde View Post
To sum up, time dilation and length contraction can be seen as 'meta-universe' effects, which is why we don't notice ourselves undergoing these effects, but force is an 'in-universe effect', and we would notice it.
Hi Vorde,

Sorry for the late responce. I responce now in steps, thats better I think. I am just not conviced about the term time dilation. But this could be the last station to be convinced. Interesting to have the opportunity to discuss this.

What is a 'meta-universe' effect ? Do you use this term because there is no explanation yet and we people like to have for everything an explanation (even if we don't yet because we just don't know all yet/ever)?

Length contraction has measured real I thought, how would you explain it (I thought it is not already explained, so you would explain it without forces) ? And with any different relative speed you measure that length contraction different from your rest frame.
Vorde
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#6
Mar20-12, 03:49 PM
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That was sloppy vocab on my part, I made up the term 'meta-universe effect' completely.

To respond to the rest, Length contraction (and time dilation) are both completely explained from the point of view of relativity. There is no use in postulating a new theory unless it
a) agrees exactly with every experiment ever done (all of which agree with relativity)
And b) postulates that an unobserved phenomenon will act differently that relativity says it will.
digi99
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#7
Mar21-12, 03:21 PM
P: 183
Quote Quote by Vorde View Post
That was sloppy vocab on my part, I made up the term 'meta-universe effect' completely.

To respond to the rest, Length contraction (and time dilation) are both completely explained from the point of view of relativity. There is no use in postulating a new theory unless it
a) agrees exactly with every experiment ever done (all of which agree with relativity)
And b) postulates that an unobserved phenomenon will act differently that relativity says it will.
You intend that there is a very hugh theory behind length contraction and time dilation, its just based on the Lorentz transformation. I find it not very much ... can be lead to a lot of coincidences.

How I look to it right now (until somebody could convince me differently) it could be all explained in a different way, but still the same results as in the theory of relativity (so in that way it does not matter, calculations will be the same).

Its just the factor time where I have problems with, is time dilation because of time goes slower or is there one time (just how we defined it with our clock on our earth, like we did for a meter) and goes a clock slower because of a force (think to a kind of Higgs field in the future) and a light wave slower (fired from a moving object) and gives together with the slower clock the always constant C (you need a clock to measure time, also in empty space).

If you or others could give me one experiment which proves this can't be the case, it could convince me, but I guess until now there is not anyone ... because we don't know enough for the moment ... it is just waiting what one will find in the future in hugh expensive experiments ...
Vorde
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#8
Mar21-12, 03:51 PM
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It seems as if you are unable to be swayed, so I will stop trying. But the bottom line is that relativity doesn't immediately make sense, at all. But time and time again it has proven itself to be extremely correct, and therefore has been adopted. You can think up another explanation for time dilation, but it has as much use as the sentence: "planets orbit the sun because they like each other"


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