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How to picture the cell? |
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| Sep22-12, 02:15 PM | #69 |
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How to picture the cell?
Given that the OP has admitted to a problematic language barrier and is trying to fill in some understanding of the basics could we please avoid going too off topic on discussions of what counts as random and subjectivity in the scientific method? This is not intended as a criticism but a friendly reminder that we must tailor our discussions to the understanding of the OP.
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| Sep22-12, 06:40 PM | #70 |
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| Sep22-12, 09:50 PM | #71 |
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| Sep22-12, 10:54 PM | #72 |
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In the model, the strength of the shaking represents the amount of thermal energy in the environment surrounding the poliovirus capsid molecules (i.e. the temperature). Evolution tunes the strength of the intermolecular interactions between the capsid molecules such that the capsid molecules can assemble at that temperature (in the case of poliovirus, 37oC, the temperature of its host). It is well established that microevolutionary processes can select for amino acid mutations that tune protein-protein interactions for certain temperatures, and many experiments have demonstrated this principle. |
| Sep28-12, 08:16 AM | #73 |
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The OP appears to be interpreting the word "random" differently from scientists and most of the replies. It is not entirely clear what the OP thinks is meant by the word random. Scientists use the word random very differently. To be fair, even scientific usage of the word random varies. I agree that subjectivity in science is not the issue here. Whether or not the scientists are subjective or objective is an unrelated issue. The concepts of subjectivity and objectivity have nothing to do with the concept of random. Subjectivity and objectivity are certainly interesting concepts that should be discussed in a different thread. The way a scientist uses the word, "random" has nothing to do with either "consciousness", "causality" or even "programming". The OP has used all these words in conjunction with the word "random". Therefore, discussion of the word "random" is salient to the topic. |
| Sep28-12, 08:19 AM | #74 |
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| Sep29-12, 12:55 PM | #75 |
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- About diffusion as a transport mechanism -
Earlier I wrote: “So the different bits must all be highly specified and have just one possibility to fall into place”. This is in line with the ‘lock and key theory’; mentioned by Darwin123. However in case of multiple identical locks and keys, there are also multiple places (locks) for the individual keys and vice versa. The lock and key theory is not applicable to the phenomenon of 'self-assembly' of identical parts into ordered structures, because all the particles are identical. The emergence of these ordered structures must be explained by the tendency of parts to form the most stable structure when under pressure from Brownian motion (or when being shaken as in the movie). Both Pythagorean and Ygggdrasil criticize my statement "Random movement of Lego parts cannot explain a complex Lego car" and both point towards the phenomenon of self-assembly. They are right if a complex Lego car is indeed the most stable structure that Lego parts can form under pressure from Brownian motion. It is not apparent however that this is the case. A ball-like structure seems more likely. |
| Sep29-12, 01:49 PM | #76 |
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I would like to make some general points.
1. "Random" is a dangerous word. It is ambiguous without careful definition. An exposition at an elementary level is given in Chapter 21, "Probability and Ambiguity" of Martin Gardner's book. Consequently, one may get into arguments about whether something is random or not, simply by having different definitions of random. Such arguments are purely semantic, and not very meaningful. 2. One of the questions of the OP is closely related to Levinthal's paradox - if a protein folds "randomly", it will take longer than the lifetime of the universe to reach the observed conformation. The resolution is of course to ask - what is the definition of "random" consistent with the laws of physics to use in this case? One hypothesis is to use a definition of randomness that includes a "bias". Because of the randomness and the bias, protein folding can be described as random and as directed, without contradiction. http://www.phas.ubc.ca/~steve/public...art1_QRB02.pdf http://www.haverford.edu/biology/Cou...io303_dill.pdf http://people.virginia.edu/~dta4n/bi...dingIandII.pdf |
| Sep29-12, 03:04 PM | #77 |
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Lock-and-key is a simplification that helps in understanding of basic protein interaction, but it's by no means the whole story: |
| Sep29-12, 08:14 PM | #78 |
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| Sep29-12, 10:11 PM | #79 |
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| Sep29-12, 10:39 PM | #80 |
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And of course, the programs anyway, are a result of physics of long temporal scales. We isolate a particular set of molecules and the way they interact and call it a program, but it's a goal-oriented program like a software engineer would write. |
| Sep29-12, 10:43 PM | #81 |
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http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17113390 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22053049 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19594634 Edit: Here's another example "Checkpoints are comparable to the program in a washing machine that checks if one step has been properly completed before the next can start. Checkpoint defects are considered to be one of the reasons behind the transformation of normal cells into cancer cells." http://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_priz...on-speech.html |
| Sep29-12, 10:52 PM | #82 |
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Regardless, there's no "program of the cell".
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| Sep29-12, 11:29 PM | #83 |
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Also, self-assembly processes can produce structures that are non-spherical. Just look up DNA nanotechnology, which can create nearly any arbitrary 2D or 3D shape. |
| Sep30-12, 05:54 AM | #84 |
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| Sep30-12, 06:26 AM | #85 |
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> The question is: 'who is controlling the epigenetic switchboard’? < |
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