How does one measure the absolute velocity of an object?


by Sydney Self
Tags: time, velocity
Sydney Self
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#1
Nov23-12, 01:02 PM
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It is well-known that the velocity of an object can only be determined in relation to the velocity of another object (the two trains in a station). Einstein's relativity theory limits the velocity of an object to the speed of light; it also been demonstrated that no matter what the velocity of an object is, the speed of light remains constant. Given the above, how does an object 'know' how fast it is travelling?
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phyzguy
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#2
Nov23-12, 02:50 PM
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You seem to be missing the point. There is no such thing as "absolute velocity". As you said, velocity can only be determined relative to another object. Why do you think the fact that the speed of light is constant in all frames of reference requires there to be an absolute velocity?
Sydney Self
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#3
Nov23-12, 03:43 PM
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The reason I ask is because, as I understand it, Einstein's Special Theory states that an object cannot move faster than the speed of light. To me, that implies that somehow its speed is being controlled so that it cannot exceed the speed of light and, if so, its speed must somehow be known.

phyzguy
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#4
Nov23-12, 04:04 PM
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How does one measure the absolute velocity of an object?


The point is that nothing can go faster than the speed of light, as measured by any observer in any frame of reference. You might try reading

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special..._for_beginners
Sydney Self
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#5
Nov23-12, 09:57 PM
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Yes, I know that, you know that, my question is: How is the velocity of the object determined - how is its velocity dermined if it can't be measured?
DocZaius
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#6
Nov23-12, 10:14 PM
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First of all, I'm not sure this belongs in Quantum Physics... (edit: it's since been moved to relativity)

Special relativity doesn't state that there exists a speed limit in relation to some preferred, central, or absolute frame of reference (which your questions imply you believe must necessarily exist). Rather, it states that there exists a speed limit in relation to all possible inertial frames of reference.

The rule is, where speed of light is 'c':

1) Pick a non-accelerating frame of reference
2) Nothing will be moving faster than 'c' in relation to it

The consequences of this rule are what lead to the funny business which you observe at speeds near c. I encourage you to create scenarios involving 3 or more frames of reference (say, 3 spaceships) and see if you can come up with logical impossibilities as a result of this definition of a speed limit based on a non-absolute frame of reference.
phinds
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#7
Nov23-12, 10:51 PM
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Quote Quote by Sydney Self View Post
Yes, I know that, you know that, my question is: How is the velocity of the object determined - how is its velocity dermined if it can't be measured?
HUH ? Who says you can't measure it? You DO have to measure it relative to something, which just gets us back to what you've already been told. You seem to think that "measure it" / "determine it" means measure it against some absolute frame of reference even while you seem to understand that there is no such thing.
russ_watters
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#8
Nov24-12, 12:35 AM
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Quote Quote by Sydney Self View Post
Yes, I know that, you know that, my question is: How is the velocity of the object determined - how is its velocity dermined if it can't be measured?
The first sentence of your first post contains the answer.
ghwellsjr
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#9
Nov24-12, 01:12 AM
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Quote Quote by Sydney Self View Post
It is well-known that the velocity of an object can only be determined in relation to the velocity of another object (the two trains in a station). Einstein's relativity theory limits the velocity of an object to the speed of light; it also been demonstrated that no matter what the velocity of an object is, the speed of light remains constant. Given the above, how does an object 'know' how fast it is travelling?
The whole point of Einstein's Special Relativity is that you are free to select any Inertial Reference Frame (IRF) as the absolute frame of reference against which all velocities, including the speed of light are determined. So instead of thinking "that the velocity of an object can only be determined in relation to the velocity of another object," think of the velocities of both those two objects being determined in relation to the coordinates of your arbitrarily selected IRF.

I think your concern is how can the velocity of one object be dependent on the velocity of another object far removed from the first one, is that right? But if you realize that an IRF extends out infinitely in all directions and covers all time, then any object is intimately associated with coordinates local to it no matter where it is. This allows you to consider just one object and analyze everything about it without regard to any other object.

Does that help you?
phyti
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#10
Nov24-12, 11:15 AM
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Quote Quote by Sydney Self View Post
It is well-known that the velocity of an object can only be determined in relation to the velocity of another object (the two trains in a station). Einstein's relativity theory limits the velocity of an object to the speed of light; it also been demonstrated that no matter what the velocity of an object is, the speed of light remains constant. Given the above, how does an object 'know' how fast it is travelling?
An object cannot know how fast it is moving. This is another case of the meaningless questions involving personification of objects.
If your intended question is: How do you measure the absolute speed of an object?
There is no known method of doing this. All you can measure is the difference in speeds.
phinds
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#11
Nov24-12, 11:23 AM
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Quote Quote by phyti View Post
An object cannot know how fast it is moving. This is another case of the meaningless questions involving personification of objects.
If your intended question is: How do you measure the absolute speed of an object?
There is no known method of doing this. All you can measure is the difference in speeds.
I disagree w/ the bolded part. It is NOT that there is no known way to measure it, it is that it does not exist, thus the question of measuring it is meaningless.
Sydney Self
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#12
Nov24-12, 11:24 AM
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Thanks George,
My problem is that Brian Greene states ". . . the combined speed of any object's motion through space and its motion throught time is always precisely equal to the speed of light". He also says, "An object's velocity can be specified only in relation to that of another object." and ". . . special relativity says that nothing can travel faster that the speed of light. . ." and " . . . according to special relativity, absolute spacetime does exist."

Given the above, if all velocities are relative, how can we know know what the speed of anything (except light) is? Also, if the velocity of an object can't be determined, how can it be demonstrated that an object isn't travelling faster than light?


I've read quite extensively - Brian Greene, Paul Davies, Gary Zukav, Roger Penrose, Stephen Hawkings, and no one has explained how velocity through absolute spacetime can be measured.

(I've got my own answer to the problem, but I hesitate to describe it because I don't have a PhD.)
A.T.
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#13
Nov24-12, 11:36 AM
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Quote Quote by phinds View Post
It is NOT that there is no known way to measure it, it is that it does not exist,
As far physics is concerned, there is no known way to measure it. Existence is philosophy.
Nugatory
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#14
Nov24-12, 11:39 AM
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Quote Quote by Sydney Self View Post
Thanks George,
My problem is that Brian Greene states ". . . the combined speed of any object's motion through space and its motion throught time is always precisely equal to the speed of light". He also says, "An object's velocity can be specified only in relation to that of another object." and ". . . special relativity says that nothing can travel faster that the speed of light. . ." and " . . . according to special relativity, absolute spacetime does exist."
That's an example of the misunderstandings that can arise when someone (even an expert someone) uses less-than-precise words to describe a mathematical concept. The "speed" that he's talking about here is the magnitude of the velocity 4-vector, which is a very useful mathematical concept in general relativity and the modern formulation of special relativity; but it has very little to do with speed and motion as we use these terms to describe the motion of objects in space. Einstein himself didn't use 4-vectors to develop SR; that came later.

(I've got my own answer to the problem, but I hesitate to describe it because I don't have a PhD.)
Don't let that stop you - this stuff is more accessible than that. The relative/absolute velocity question this thread started with, approached in the more old-fashioned formalism, the way Einstein originally worked it out, is within the reach of anyone who knows basic algebra. Even the 4-vector formalism is standard fare by the second year of an undergraduate physics program.

This is a long-winded way of encouraging you to learn the math instead of (as well as?) listening to the pop-sci crowd. It's not as hard as you think, and it is amazingly much more fun when you get it.
A.T.
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#15
Nov24-12, 11:42 AM
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Quote Quote by Sydney Self View Post
if all velocities are relative ...if the velocity of an object can't be determined
You confuse "is relative" and "cannot be determined",
ZikZak
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#16
Nov24-12, 12:24 PM
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Quote Quote by Sydney Self View Post
Thanks George,
My problem is that Brian Greene states ". . . the combined speed of any object's motion through space and its motion throught time is always precisely equal to the speed of light". He also says, "An object's velocity can be specified only in relation to that of another object." and ". . . special relativity says that nothing can travel faster that the speed of light. . ." and " . . . according to special relativity, absolute spacetime does exist."
Brian Greene's ideas of how to teach this concept are rather unique to him. I don't think many other Relativists would agree that "the combined speed of any object's motion through space and its motion throught time is always precisely equal to the speed of light." This is his idiosyncratic way of saying that the magnitude of the velocity 4-vector is unity. But that is not a speed in any sense anyone would actually use the word "speed." It's more like it's a unit vector pointing out the direction the body travels through space-time. All unit vectors have magnitude 1.

The body does not have an absolute velocity through space, or an absolute velocity though time, because different observers define space and time differently. His "combined speed" is a 4-vector: an operation that can be done independently in any reference frame with any observer's measurements, even though different observers measure different quantities.

Given the above, if all velocities are relative, how can we know know what the speed of anything (except light) is?
You use your meter sticks and clocks to measure the distance a body travels in a certain time, and then divide one by the other. You then know the speed of the body in your reference frame.

Also, if the velocity of an object can't be determined, how can it be demonstrated that an object isn't travelling faster than light?
The velocity is easily determined by measuring the distance it travels in a certain amount of time. That velocity will always be less than c.


I've read quite extensively - Brian Greene, Paul Davies, Gary Zukav, Roger Penrose, Stephen Hawkings, and no one has explained how velocity through absolute spacetime can be measured.
That's because there is no such thing. It's called "Relativity" precisely for that reason.
Sydney Self
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#17
Nov24-12, 12:35 PM
P: 9
Nugatory
The math I got that accompanied my second year undergraduate physics ended with differential equations and I'm afraid that I've long forgotten what I learned about matrixes. I had to look up 4-vector math in Wikipedia and although I know what a Minkowski diagram is, I don't know how to approach it mathematically.
I've been approaching the concept of time from the perspective of philosopy, and since much of time is not subject to experimentation, philosophy has some relevance.

A.T.
I mean't to say 'the absolute velocity'. Also, I've given a great deal of thought about the concept of reality.
Sydney Self
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#18
Nov24-12, 12:51 PM
P: 9
ZikZak
I have a basic problem with relativity. Einstein, and all the other individuals I've read who discuss it, base everything in terms of observers, as if everything that occurs in the universe is, and needs to be, observed. I have no quarrel with what reality deals with, my problem is with what it doesn't.
There is no direct, defined relationship between what we perceive and what physically exists. I have come to recognize that if one deliberately tries to distinguish between physical reality and subjective reality that one arrives at some interesting ideas.


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