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Prestige of Undergraduate College and Grad School Admission

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gsmith
#1
Dec15-12, 08:56 PM
P: 33
I am a rising senior in a well regarded Pittsburgh area public school. When I enter college next year I will be majoring in Physics with a minor

(possible double major) in Computer Science. I would like to eventually be involved in research at a major institution and plan to get my PhD in

Physics. Though I am applying to big-time schools such as Chicago, Cornell, etc. and think that I have a fairly good chance of getting in, the

funds to send me to such places are in doubt. I have been accepted to the University of Pittsburgh (honors college) and Case Western, both

with sizable merit scholarships, these are what I consider to be my backups. I am aware that both of these school's physics departments are

good, but not phenomenal. My question is, if my top tier schools don't work out for me, would high-level grad schools look down on an

applicant from one of these schools or someplace similar? Would being affiliated with a 2nd or 3rd tier undergraduate program hold me back

moving froward in my physics career?
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ZombieFeynman
#2
Dec15-12, 09:26 PM
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No, going to a school like Pitt or Case Western should close no doors to you later down the line.

There are no set tiers in graduate school. Some programs excel in areas where others do not. Some programs, like MIT or Princeton (etc), excel in many areas. Some smaller programs excel in a more narrow subset of areas. There are people doing excellent research at essentially ALL R1 universities. There are always gems in the rough.
jtbell
#3
Dec15-12, 09:36 PM
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When I was a grad student at U of Michigan, my apartment-mate for most of that time was another physics grad student, who did his undergrad at Pitt. After a postdoc or two he ended up with a research position at the Livermore national laboratory, and was doing well the last time I heard from him which was admittedly several years ago.

I myself went to a small liberal-arts college in Ohio, with not nearly the same reputation as Pitt or CWRU, and I got into Michigan, which was the most "prestigious" school that I applied to for grad school.

I'll leave it to you to decide whether Michigan is "high-level" enough for your taste. I once had a T-shirt with a knock-off of the Harvard seal and the slogan "Harvard: The Michigan of the East".

gsmith
#4
Dec15-12, 09:52 PM
P: 33
Prestige of Undergraduate College and Grad School Admission

Thank you, tremendously reassuring and appreciated advice.
bcrowell
#5
Dec16-12, 08:33 AM
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I think you're asking the wrong question. The question isn't whether you'll be excluded from grad school because you went to a public school. The question is whether the quality of the education you get at Pitt would be the same as the quality of what you got at Chicago. The answer is ... maybe, maybe not. It depends on a lot of factors. People sometimes go to fancy schools and get a terrible education, or the other way around. But at a lower-tier school there may also be a sort of glass ceiling limiting how good your education can be. I went to Berkeley undergrad, and expect my kids to go to a UC, so I'm not biased against state schools. But you should consider whether it's worthwhile to go to Chicago or Cornell if you get in there, and finance it with subsidized or unsubsidized Stafford loans. At this stage, you shouldn't be making firm decisions, since you don't yet know what kind of deal Chicago or Cornell would offer you if you got in. Have you used the calculators on their web sites to figure out your expected family contribution? (Even that is just an estimate.)
gsmith
#6
Dec16-12, 01:19 PM
P: 33
Quote Quote by bcrowell View Post
I think you're asking the wrong question. The question isn't whether you'll be excluded from grad school because you went to a public school. The question is whether the quality of the education you get at Pitt would be the same as the quality of what you got at Chicago. The answer is ... maybe, maybe not. It depends on a lot of factors. People sometimes go to fancy schools and get a terrible education, or the other way around. But at a lower-tier school there may also be a sort of glass ceiling limiting how good your education can be. I went to Berkeley undergrad, and expect my kids to go to a UC, so I'm not biased against state schools. But you should consider whether it's worthwhile to go to Chicago or Cornell if you get in there, and finance it with subsidized or unsubsidized Stafford loans. At this stage, you shouldn't be making firm decisions, since you don't yet know what kind of deal Chicago or Cornell would offer you if you got in. Have you used the calculators on their web sites to figure out your expected family contribution? (Even that is just an estimate.)
Thank you for your response.

I certainly have made no firm decisions yet. When I looked at my expected family contributions the results were maybe/maybe not.

Also, under what circumstances would you consider it to be not worth it to go to Chicago or Cornell besides the financial aspect?
bcrowell
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Dec16-12, 01:44 PM
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Quote Quote by gsmith View Post
I certainly have made no firm decisions yet. When I looked at my expected family contributions the results were maybe/maybe not.
If I'm understanding you correctly, that means that your family might or might not be able to give you this education without your having to take out loans. I'm not saying you should take out loans, but it's an option you should consider carefully.

Quote Quote by gsmith View Post
Also, under what circumstances would you consider it to be not worth it to go to Chicago or Cornell besides the financial aspect?
For many students, the limiting factor in the quality of their education is the student, not the school. In that situation, a more expensive school is a waste of money.
gsmith
#8
Dec16-12, 05:01 PM
P: 33
Thanks for the advice bcrowell, much appreciated.
Aero51
#9
Dec16-12, 05:56 PM
P: 546
Don't take those rankings seriously. If you want to go to grad school look at a professors specific research projects. If you find one that you like try to establish a relationship with the professor and visit his/her lab. When you visit take time to observe the environment, atmosphere. I made the mistake of appling to schools without visiting them - don't do it.
aLearner
#10
Jun10-13, 01:30 AM
P: 25
Just a shout out: I don't think the school you go to has any impact on how well an education you get; only you can guarantee that. Ultimately it appears that the quality of your research work matters, not your college grade from some well-reputed college. However, there comes tremendous respect with a name. But that doesn't mean it's necessary, just preferable. Highly preferable. Think about it this way: would you buy a HP laptop or a UncleTom's laptop? But then what if one laptop belonging to UncleTom's company happened to work twice as efficiently as the best HP laptop? Wouldn't you buy that particular laptop instead of the HP one?
Arsenic&Lace
#11
Jun10-13, 06:56 PM
P: 295
Quote Quote by bcrowell View Post
. But at a lower-tier school there may also be a sort of glass ceiling limiting how good your education can be.
More or less this is crock; most important learning happens outside of the class room and is individually motivated. As long as there is a diverse range of researchers of reasonable quality in the department, you're in good shape, since the most valuable knowledge you'll gain by far happens (in my opinion, I must qualify) in a lab, not in a lecture. It has far more to do with how hard you push yourself than it does with how the curriculum is composed.

I go to a top 40 school which admittedly means that the research output is probably hefty, but it's important to recognize that the hardest working students I know obtained competitive REU's at places like Princeton and NIST, while the top 10% here usually gets admitted into a top 10 grad school.

Basically, ignore bcrowell. For the first two years, go to a community college; just go where the money is. I know many individuals who went this route, some of whom are at top grad schools now, and even a professor. Don't get into debt at this stage of your life. If you get a hefty scholarship to a state school, so be it, but the first two years of education needn't be done at Harvard, given their relative insignificance.
Vanadium 50
#12
Jun10-13, 07:36 PM
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I disagree with A&L - I think you can't compare a Top 40 school with some of the truly awful departments out there. In my youth, I knew of one place that had four professors in the department, three of whom had retired in place, and one who really a CS guy. Nobody did any research. Only one guy even had a lab, and it was a museum. Their upper division texts were Purcell (E&M), Eisberg and Resnick (QM) and Kleppner (Mechanics).

After 2 years of MIT, I was farther along than their graduates. Maybe even after 1-1/2.

There are 900 schools that offer a BA or BS in physics. There are 160 that offer the PhD. There is a big difference from #160 to #900 and an even bigger difference from #40 to #900.
Arsenic&Lace
#13
Jun10-13, 08:30 PM
P: 295
Alright I concede, I suppose I jumped the gun; you can find lousy physics departments in which even the most talented of us would probably languish. However, I think that for the majority of reasonably sized large state schools and community colleges, you're in good shape, which is what I had in mind.
AnTiFreeze3
#14
Jun10-13, 09:15 PM
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Quote Quote by Vanadium 50 View Post
... After 2 years of MIT, I was farther along than their graduates. Maybe even after 1-1/2 ...
One should also take into consideration that students getting into MIT are not, in the slightest, comparable to students getting into whatever college you described, where introductory textbooks are used as higher level textbooks.
Arsenic&Lace
#15
Jun10-13, 09:37 PM
P: 295
That's actually an extremely good point Antifreeze. There's enormous selection bias at MIT. A solid percentage of serious (and completely unserious) physics students think they would love to go there and apply; the ones who get in are typically top of their class (from my understanding). One need only watch MIT lectures or read lecture notes to realize that the education there is completely lousy. Most professors I've seen lecturing are no less lousy than the ones at my institution (with the occasional gem). The exams seem slightly more rigorous... but only slightly, and a cursory comparison would seem to reveal that this washes out third or fourth year.

And it's irrelevant anyways. MIT students can fritter away their spare time in more challenging courses to their hearts content; again, the meat of the matter happens in undergraduate research (in my humble opinion), and that depends vastly more on the individual student/faculty relationship. There are extremely intense professors where I go, and some very laid back ones.
Aimless
#16
Jun10-13, 11:10 PM
P: 128
Quote Quote by Vanadium 50 View Post
In my youth, I knew of one place that had four professors in the department, three of whom had retired in place, and one who really a CS guy. Nobody did any research. Only one guy even had a lab, and it was a museum. Their upper division texts were Purcell (E&M), Eisberg and Resnick (QM) and Kleppner (Mechanics).
I went to a place like this. Well, maybe not so bad; we at least used Griffiths for E&M, although we used no textbook for QM and I did not have an upper level mechanics or stat. mech. class, due to timing and a lack of available students. I was the only one to graduate with a B.S. in Physics my year, so that should give you an indication of the size of the department (I'm surprised they managed to maintain accreditation.)

Nevertheless, I largely agree with A&L. Despite my lack of preparation, I still made it into grad. school and finished my PhD. I'll admit that the first year grad. school courses were difficult; mechanics and stat. mech. in particular (I had never had formal coursework using the Lagrangian formulation, nor had I ever seen a Maxwell relation, prior to those classes). Nonetheless, I passed.

There is no glass ceiling; talent and motivation can overcome a lack of quality coursework. Does that mean I recommend going to a school with a department like that? Of course not. But I also don't recommend mortgaging your soul to attend a named school just so that you can have that distinction on your diploma. Where you go and who you work for as a grad. student is ultimately far, far more important than where you go as an undergrad.
WannabeNewton
#17
Jun11-13, 04:15 AM
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Quote Quote by Arsenic&Lace View Post
That's actually an extremely good point Antifreeze. There's enormous selection bias at MIT. A solid percentage of serious (and completely unserious) physics students think they would love to go there and apply; the ones who get in are typically top of their class (from my understanding). One need only watch MIT lectures or read lecture notes to realize that the education there is completely lousy. Most professors I've seen lecturing are no less lousy than the ones at my institution (with the occasional gem). The exams seem slightly more rigorous... but only slightly, and a cursory comparison would seem to reveal that this washes out third or fourth year.
It looks to me like you are just putting down top universities because of your own personal issues. I think it is quite hilarious that you have a need to even put down MIT of all places. What's next? Are you going to say CalTech and UChicago have only a slightly better education than your university? Give me a break.

The only way to further Ben's points is to have someone who actually went to schools like UChicago, Cornell, MIT, Princeton, Stanford etc. comment here and elaborate on how rigorous / non-rigorous and how good/bad an education they had. Vanadium already commented with regards to MIT.
Lavabug
#18
Jun11-13, 04:41 AM
P: 899
Quote Quote by Aimless View Post
I went to a place like this. Well, maybe not so bad; we at least used Griffiths for E&M, although we used no textbook for QM and I did not have an upper level mechanics or stat. mech. class, due to timing and a lack of available students. I was the only one to graduate with a B.S. in Physics my year, so that should give you an indication of the size of the department (I'm surprised they managed to maintain accreditation.)

Nevertheless, I largely agree with A&L. Despite my lack of preparation, I still made it into grad. school and finished my PhD. I'll admit that the first year grad. school courses were difficult; mechanics and stat. mech. in particular (I had never had formal coursework using the Lagrangian formulation, nor had I ever seen a Maxwell relation, prior to those classes). Nonetheless, I passed.

There is no glass ceiling; talent and motivation can overcome a lack of quality coursework. Does that mean I recommend going to a school with a department like that? Of course not. But I also don't recommend mortgaging your soul to attend a named school just so that you can have that distinction on your diploma. Where you go and who you work for as a grad. student is ultimately far, far more important than where you go as an undergrad.
Wow. I had a year's worth of Goldstein and Landau Mechanics, and an upper level thermodynamics course (based on Callen) in my sophomore, plus a full semester course on SM(Kubo, Dalvit) in junior year, so I covered all the things you mention. My department graduates about 4-5 undergrads a year and is known in some circles, but I didn't make it to grad school. What else did you do to convince grad departments you were grad student material?

CWRU and Pittsburgh both have excellent physics departments and you will not be lacking in research opportunities during your undergrad(lack of this can kill your chances for grad school as I am finding out). I don't think the OP has any reason for concern, take whichever option is most financially reasonable for you.


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