
#19
Sep1612, 09:50 AM

P: 461





#20
Sep1612, 03:37 PM

P: 863

Apparently you don't want to answer the question. Nor does the above quote make any sense.




#21
Sep1612, 04:38 PM

P: 461

see below the term FORCE with quotations marks ? where !!! i answered that ? pointing out ?!!! what ?! no way, reread the posts and you will see.... read your post 17 and you will see your mistake. 



#22
Sep1612, 09:23 PM

P: 863

Answer this one question: What contradiction was you referring to in post #13? Repeat: What contradiction was you referring to in post #13? Repeat: What contradiction was you referring to in post #13? 



#23
Sep1912, 04:27 PM

P: 90

Love these links you throw at us, Bohm2 :)
But: I'm trying to understand this in a intuitive way as I lack the mathematical insight. I have two questions regarding the link form an earlier post by Bohm2, november 2011: Beyond the Quantum by Valentini: http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/...001.2758v1.pdf On top of page 6, Valentini writes about the fate of The Pilot Wave Theory on the 1927 Solway conference: "de Broglie seems not to have recognized that his dynamics was irreducibly non local. Nor was this recognized by anyone else at the conference. The action of the wave in multidimensional configuration space is such that a local operation on one particle can have an instantaneous effect on the motions of other (distant) particles." Why is the Pilot Wave Theory irreducibly nonlocal  which aspect of the theory predicts that entangled particles react to each other instantly, disregarding relativity? Can someone please try to explain that to me... in plain english if possible? (It's a classical description of quantum mechanics, so we can start visualising things again, right?) AND from that same link page 7, line 4: "Bell made it clear that the pilot wave is a ‘real objective field’ in configuration space, and not merely a mathematical object or probability wave." I'm having trouble understanding/picturing what is meant by "configuration space" and a "wave in multidimensional configuration space". Would it be approximately right to think of this wave in configuration space as the wave of each particle existing in it's own spacetime interacting with all other particles waves in their spacetimes... or more dramatic: "The particle's universal wave up against the United Universal Waves of The Universe" ("United Space" for short :)? Hope someone can help me to understand this better  I find it very interesting. Best, Henrik 



#24
Sep2012, 09:08 AM

PF Gold
P: 670

The reality of configuration space http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=554543 



#25
Oct512, 07:37 AM

P: 65

Just to echo Hernik, thanks for your efforts here, bohm. Once again I've got plenty of new homework waiting for me!




#26
Oct912, 10:15 PM

PF Gold
P: 670

This is another interesting paper that recently came out by Y. Couder et al. They discuss the 2 different models proposed by Bohm versus de Broglie's theory of the Double Solution with reference to the diffraction of bouncing droplets:
http://iopscience.iop.org/17426596/...1_1_012001.pdf 



#27
Oct1012, 05:38 AM

P: 3,178





#28
Oct1112, 05:12 PM

P: 90

"Probabilities and trajectories in a classical waveparticle duality
http://iopscience.iop.org/17426596/...1_1_012001.pdf" That was great fun to read, bohm2. Adding the memory of the pilot wave to the explanation of how pilot waves function is the first time in more than 80 years that someone expands de Broglie's dual pilot wave theory, isn't it? I have a question though: In a passage on the middle of page 4, Couder is describing the result of his diffraction experiment with walkers: "This means that the probability distribution of the deviations of a droplet is given by the diffraction of a plane wave . This result is similar to what would be obtained with electrons or photons except that the distribution would then be given by the square of the wave amplitude." "Similar ... except" What does he mean  is it similar or is it different? Can it be both? So that the result given by a plane wave in two dimensions is directly comparable to a distribution given by the square of the amplitude of a wave in three dimensions  is that the way it should be understood? Best, Henrik 



#29
Oct1112, 07:07 PM

PF Gold
P: 670

Just to add to the links in case anybody is as fascinated by these experiments as I am I thought I would also post the experiment simulating the Zeeman effect by this same group of physicists:
http://stilton.tnw.utwente.nl/people...ted/Zeeman.pdf Bouncing droplets simulate Zeeman effect http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/...zeemaneffect 



#30
Oct1212, 03:14 PM

P: 90

Well. I certainly cannot say I understand Jareks words to any depth :). But it leaves me with the impression/hunch that the plane wave in two dimensions IS directly comparable to the three dimensional wave IF the latter represents a probability distribution and not a physical wave  is that a reasonable interpretation of Jareks comment? Jarek? Best, Henrik 



#31
Oct1212, 09:39 PM

PF Gold
P: 670

I'm guessing English isn't his first language but it reads better in the link of his article he cites:
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1111.2253v3.pdf I also found this comment by Jarek discussing deBroglie model analogue of the external vibration frequency induced by Couder group interesting: 



#32
Oct1412, 07:22 PM

P: 90

From 70.10 ...Couder is talking about deBroglie’s idea of two waves in quantum mechanics : A standing wave surrounding the particle, and a wave representing probabilities, namely the Schrödinger wave. Couder then compares this idea to the experiments with walkers passing through a slit the size of the wavelength of the standing wave generated by the droplet: “So in fact if you reconsider our experiment: In a way it suggests a sort of implementation of de Brogle’s idea. Because if you look at one trajectory of our wave/particle association, when you look at the passage of.. at this thing passing through the slit. You have a real particle associated with a standing wave that moves through the slit and doesn’t look at all like it is a plane wave. But if you look at the statistics, then you will see, that the statistics look, as if you had had a plane wave crossing the slit, so in a way (...) this would be the schrödinger wave.” So I think I can answer my “similar...except”question: The distribution of the directions of the droplets in Couder’s experiment with walkers going through slits is similar to the Schrödinger equation in the way that it is simply a probability distribution (due to the wavefronts merging after the slit after the droplet has achieved a random direction during the passing of the slit) reflecting what Bohr convinced Schrödinger about during his famous visit in Copenhagen. So IF Couder’s group’s experiments are valid analogies to what goes on at the quantum scale, the experiments not only support de Broglie’s ideas of two types of waves (real standing waves AND a probabilitywave) at play in quantum mechanics, but also justify the Copenhagen people’s idea of a genuine randomness at play after a measurement, as well as give enormous credit to Einstein’s view that if it is part of this world it’s gotta behave classically + it contradicts Bohm’s idea of the Schrödinger wave being physical? Best, Henrik 



#33
Oct1412, 09:20 PM

PF Gold
P: 670

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1106.5994v3.pdf A more philosophical paper and slides by Grossing discussing these ideas can be found here: The Quantum as an Emergent System http://www.nonlinearstudies.at/files/ggEmerQuM.pdf http://iopscience.iop.org/17426596/...1_1_012008.pdf 



#34
Oct1612, 09:15 PM

PF Gold
P: 670

From the Gerhard Grossing et al. paper in the previous link above the authors mentioned a fortcoming paper to explain entanglement/wholeness/nonlocality using analogies/insights from the Couder classical "walking" bouncer experiments:
http://lanl.arxiv.org/pdf/1210.4406.pdf 



#35
Dec3012, 04:18 AM

P: 3

There are some new results from the walking droplets that demonstrate how wavelike statistics arise from an underlying pilotwave dynamics through deterministic chaos.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nmC0ygr08tE What do you think? 



#36
Dec3012, 12:18 PM

PF Gold
P: 670

http://arxiv.org/pdf/1206.1140.pdf 


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