Register to reply

Photon-proton/ proton-electron interactions

Share this thread:
Drakkith
#19
Jul21-11, 04:10 PM
Mentor
Drakkith's Avatar
P: 11,897
Why is her gravity forcefield repelling things? Gravity is only attractive.
lightcaster
#20
Jul21-11, 06:22 PM
P: 6
Alright, perhaps I worded it wrong? Should I have said magnetic force?
But I still run into a problem...

I have tried doing research but as I said, I'm having trouble when it comes to her powers repelling things. If gravity can only attract, what force would be required to repel?
I tried going to youtube to see if I could find something that was forcing objects away, but that was no good. I just found this, but I don't think it is real.

The whole thing is complicated because the guy in the fight is shooting some type of gravity ball at her, so lets take that out and replace it with something more simple.
Lets instead replace it with a person.

I have never seen a real life force field so I'm not sure what would happen. I read that plasma can work as a shield to keep particles out, like on a spacecraft, but it wouldn't actually repel the object, the plasma would just destroy the object trying to pass through, right?

So hypothetically speaking, how would she go about reflecting matter?
Is there a real life machine that can do what I am asking?
On magnets the same poles repel each other (like north and north), but how would this be applied to other objects that are not magnets, like people?

So lets say that there are two giant magnets lodged in the ground, both are of the same "north" magnets and facing each other and repelling away. If these magnets were extremely powerful, what would be the effect of something (a person) moving in the center of the field?
Would they be smashed from the force, or just hit a barrier?
Or perhaps the waves would have no effect on a person at all?

I guess what I am asking is, would it be possible for her EM waves (or field) to repel photons and particles in way that can work on large objects like people and nonmetal projectiles?

If I am to write the book I'm going to need to understand how this works.
Drakkith
#21
Jul21-11, 06:56 PM
Mentor
Drakkith's Avatar
P: 11,897
So hypothetically speaking, how would she go about reflecting matter?
I can't really answer that as it isn't physically possible.

At VERY strong magnetic strengths, you can affect materiels that are normally unaffected by magnetic fields, but I don't know any details. At the very strongest sources of magnetic fields, magnetars (which are neutron stars) the fields are so high that they rip apart matter and do other crazy things. See here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetar

I guess what I am asking is, would it be possible for her EM waves (or field) to repel photons and particles in way that can work on large objects like people and nonmetal projectiles?
Well, an EM field is NOT composed of waves. It can have waves in it, but is not made of fields. It is probably possible that you could magnetic fields to repel things, but it really depends on a lot of variables. I suggest not even really working them out too far as you just get bogged down in the story.
lightcaster
#22
Jul21-11, 07:07 PM
P: 6
So hypothetically speaking, how would she go about reflecting matter?
I can't really answer that as it isn't physically possible.
Ahaha, yeah...
I guess I'll continue to study. Thanks for your input. I guess I'll just skip out on certain fine details when she has to use them if I can't find any more info...

If someone else can help me out that would be awesome.
I have already studied magnetars, but again that is force that destroys stuff, like her plasma shield, and it doesn't push things away from her.

I was kinda hoping she could use her force fields in ways to like create a "bubble" around herself to keep a falling building from crushing her, without disintegrating it. Or smashing a person up against a wall with her force field without them dying from it, just to hold them in place. Or perhaps put the shield up to stop a car from running her over so it hits a "brick wall" of force.
I guess like they always do in Sci-fi movies when they have those transparent force field doors to hold prisoners, or to keep people from being sucked out into space....

Oh well, thanks again. I'll check back from time to time to ask more questions.
Until then, I'll continue to read!
Drakkith
#23
Jul21-11, 07:31 PM
Mentor
Drakkith's Avatar
P: 11,897
The problem is that there isn't a force that is ONLY repulsive. An electromagnetic field is repulsive is repulsive to one charge and attractive to the other all at the same time.

However...you COULD make her so that she projects a gravity field BEHIND whatever is coming at her, causing it to stop.
lightcaster
#24
Jul21-11, 08:50 PM
P: 6
Hmm... I see... what you are saying.

So if she used the gravity field it would be pulling the object away from her?
Hmm, yeah I guess...

Lets look at this then in another way. Looking at it in the form of super powers complicates things. Perhaps she wouldn't have to actually "repulse" objects away from her, but create a large amount of force to "knock" it away from her.

Magnetars create magnetic fields, yes?
But as we said it destroys stuff in crazy ways.
I want to get away from destruction. There is no point in being a hero if you destroy everything around you. But perhaps we can use this concept. From what I understand it spins at extreme speeds and that is what creates the chaotic magnetic field.

So, EM radiation is made up of photons, right? And when this is concentrated and gathered it can turn into plasma (like lightning)?
This is correct, yes?

Can a plasma ball be created without "burning" or electrocuting? Like a very weak plasma beam?
I have never seen anything interact with plasma, as in coming in contact with it. I assume it burns because it is like an intense flame or a very strong current of energy...
I am getting to a point and I need to know if it makes sense.

I'm not sure if I understand this right, so please correct me if I am wrong.
So what if a machine created a gravity field around itself by generating a large amount of Electromagnetic radiation and began spinning it around at extreme speeds, could it really create a small gravity field? Like a fake, small scale magnetar that is spinning around in a contained area. If so, would the EM radiation that is spinning turn in to plasma?
I assume this would still be harmful if something came in contact with it...

Would it be possible for this gravity field to grab a object caught in the field, much like what a planet does when something is caught in its orbit, and then slingshot the object around and back outwards?
So that it "spins" the object away from the machine. If it is fast enough and it doesn't lose control, anything that tried passing through the force field would be thrown back by the intense rotation speed.

That way it is still being "repulsed" back the way it came. I just need to know if plasma "always" burns. Can it be a "blunt" force?
If it does always burn, what would need to be created to get the gravitational force going without using plasma? Or is this not possible?

If it turns out she is bound to be destructive I can work with that.
Drakkith
#25
Jul21-11, 08:55 PM
Mentor
Drakkith's Avatar
P: 11,897
Plasma is very very hot AND has a very very low density usually. It would be harder to knock something away with it than it is with air. And if you have enough of it to do so, it would burn the crap out of it!

I'm not sure if I understand this right, so please correct me if I am wrong.
So what if a machine created a gravity field around itself by generating a large amount of Electromagnetic radiation and began spinning it around at extreme speeds, could it create a small gravity field? And if so, would the EM radiation turn it into plasma?
I hope not, because what I understand about plasma is that it is hot and burns...
Gravity is generated from mass/momentum. The EM radiation would create gravity, but the whole idea is impossible in practice and would require so much energy it is unimaginable. It is impossible to generate a gravity field of sufficient strength without invoking superhero powers. But thats why you have those powers! To do cool stuff!
lightcaster
#26
Jul21-11, 09:25 PM
P: 6
Oi... that is complicated.
but I understand. This all helps.
I think I have enough information for now. I can work with this.
Thanks a ton for your help. I now just have to work out a few kinks to explain how her powers are channeled to go around her, and not always through her.Otherwise she will obliterate herself whenever she shoots off plasma beams. LOL.
But I have a fun idea to make it all work out.

Alright, thanks for your time. Everything you said was very helpful.
I'm going to go lurk at some of the other things posted on here. I stumbled across some other very interesting topics. I think I now know how her powers work. :)
Twich
#27
May4-12, 11:47 AM
P: 16
there must be a force that repel the electron that get close to proton so it could not stop and proton. It's may be time-space force ^^ (Sorry. If it doesn't help.)
Drakkith
#28
May4-12, 02:48 PM
Mentor
Drakkith's Avatar
P: 11,897
Quote Quote by Twich View Post
there must be a force that repel the electron that get close to proton so it could not stop and proton. It's may be time-space force ^^ (Sorry. If it doesn't help.)
There is not. An electron and a proton, and really all matter and radiation has wavelike properties and are not little hard balls like a billiard ball. The electron doesn't fall into the nucleus and impact it because the state that it is in the form of a standing wave that occupies a much larger volume than the classical electron does. This wave represents the chance of finding the electron somewhere within it, with a finite chance that it will be inside the nucleus. It doesn't fall in and stop because that is simply not a possible state for it to be in.

It's hard to explain if you don't know anything about Quantum Mechanics.
Twich
#29
May5-12, 05:24 AM
P: 16
Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
There is not. An electron and a proton, and really all matter and radiation has wavelike properties and are not little hard balls like a billiard ball. The electron doesn't fall into the nucleus and impact it because the state that it is in the form of a standing wave that occupies a much larger volume than the classical electron does. This wave represents the chance of finding the electron somewhere within it, with a finite chance that it will be inside the nucleus. It doesn't fall in and stop because that is simply not a possible state for it to be in.

It's hard to explain if you don't know anything about Quantum Mechanics.
I really don't know anything of Quantum Mechanics. I could not understand why the electron only be found in the volume that form by a standing wave form. The standing wave is the result that the electron behave in atom not the causes! Could you suggest an easy (to understand) book or URL ? Thanks a lot

I imagine that if there only one electron and one proton in space. They will run to hit the other. If their structure is not changed by the hit and there is no energy loss then the momentum will make them bouncing forever. But I don't know why there is no loss and damages occured. What is the structure of it or may it need a lot of energy to change their structure.

Furthermore when electron and proton move there are magnetic field occured. Then the electron and proton start to spin because of the magnetic field. So when the electron hit proton it will bouncing to the orbit that it could be stable there. But sometime it will be force to attack proton and bouncing again. Because of spinning made it not symetrical, so it will not move in straight line but orbit around the proton like the cloud. ^^

Note. If electron and proton is point charge (the charge concentrate at the center no dimension) then the magnetic field could not force it to spin. So I assume that the electron and proton is not the point charge.^^
Twich
#30
May5-12, 07:06 PM
P: 16
Quote Quote by Twich View Post
I really don't know anything of Quantum Mechanics. I could not understand why the electron only be found in the volume that form by a standing wave form. The standing wave is the result that the electron behave in atom not the causes! Could you suggest an easy (to understand) book or URL ? Thanks a lot

I imagine that if there only one electron and one proton in space. They will run to hit the other. If their structure is not changed by the hit and there is no energy loss then the momentum will make them bouncing forever. But I don't know why there is no loss and damages occured. What is the structure of it or may it need a lot of energy to change their structure.

Furthermore when electron and proton move there are magnetic field occured. Then the electron and proton start to spin because of the magnetic field. So when the electron hit proton it will bouncing to the orbit that it could be stable there. But sometime it will be force to attack proton and bouncing again. Because of spinning made it not symetrical, so it will not move in straight line but orbit around the proton like the cloud. ^^

Note. If electron and proton is point charge (the charge concentrate at the center no dimension) then the magnetic field could not force it to spin. So I assume that the electron and proton is not the point charge.^^
Since atom always emit EM-radiation, So the electron must lose the energy when collision occured with enough energy. Thinking about this I come to the conclusion that the atom also need right energy to repair itself. It could only repair itself with correct amount of energy.
Drakkith
#31
May5-12, 08:10 PM
Mentor
Drakkith's Avatar
P: 11,897
Quote Quote by Twich View Post
I really don't know anything of Quantum Mechanics. I could not understand why the electron only be found in the volume that form by a standing wave form. The standing wave is the result that the electron behave in atom not the causes! Could you suggest an easy (to understand) book or URL ? Thanks a lot
My favorite book on QM is: http://www.amazon.com/Introducing-Qu...6266166&sr=8-1

It gives the history of the development of QM and the basics of the underlying principles in a very very easy to read and understand form.

I imagine that if there only one electron and one proton in space. They will run to hit the other. If their structure is not changed by the hit and there is no energy loss then the momentum will make them bouncing forever. But I don't know why there is no loss and damages occured. What is the structure of it or may it need a lot of energy to change their structure.
Put simply, the electron and proton will never travel fast enough just from their mutual attraction to do anything to each other. An electron is considered to be an elementary particle, and not made up of anything smaller, so it is not possible to "damage" it. A proton is made up of quarks, but to do anything to these quarks would take a LOT of energy that only extremely high speeds can deliver. Much higher than simple attract can cause. We use particle colliders to accelerate particles to huge speeds near the speed of light to get them to a high enough energy to actually change/destroy them.

Furthermore when electron and proton move there are magnetic field occured. Then the electron and proton start to spin because of the magnetic field. So when the electron hit proton it will bouncing to the orbit that it could be stable there. But sometime it will be force to attack proton and bouncing again. Because of spinning made it not symetrical, so it will not move in straight line but orbit around the proton like the cloud. ^^
Sorry, this isn't true at all. One of the big things that stumped physicists in the early 1900's was that if classical physics was correct, the electron should emit radiation and fall into the nucleus within a billionth of a second. This does not happen. This issue was resolved with the development of QM.

Quote Quote by Twich View Post
Since atom always emit EM-radiation, So the electron must lose the energy when collision occured with enough energy. Thinking about this I come to the conclusion that the atom also need right energy to repair itself. It could only repair itself with correct amount of energy.
Nope, an atom is not damaged in any way whatsoever by it's electrons. Nor does it always emit radiation. Radiation is only emitted from a lone atom when electrons change orbits or something happens in the nucleus, like particle decay.
Twich
#32
May5-12, 08:46 PM
P: 16
Quote Quote by Drakkith View Post
Put simply, the electron and proton will never travel fast enough just from their mutual attraction to do anything to each other. An electron is considered to be an elementary particle, and not made up of anything smaller, so it is not possible to "damage" it. A proton is made up of quarks, but to do anything to these quarks would take a LOT of energy that only extremely high speeds can deliver. Much higher than simple attract can cause. We use particle colliders to accelerate particles to huge speeds near the speed of light to get them to a high enough energy to actually change/destroy them.



Sorry, this isn't true at all. One of the big things that stumped physicists in the early 1900's was that if classical physics was correct, the electron should emit radiation and fall into the nucleus within a billionth of a second. This does not happen. This issue was resolved with the development of QM.



Nope, an atom is not damaged in any way whatsoever by it's electrons. Nor does it always emit radiation. Radiation is only emitted from a lone atom when electrons change orbits or something happens in the nucleus, like particle decay.
It seem not resonable to me that the electron felt lazy and drop down emit EM radiation. It sound reasonably to me if it hit something and emit EM radiation. Where could I find any mathematical prove that the classical physics was not correct? Thanks.
Drakkith
#33
May5-12, 08:57 PM
Mentor
Drakkith's Avatar
P: 11,897
Quote Quote by Twich View Post
It seem not resonable to me that the electron felt lazy and drop down emit EM radiation. It sound reasonably to me if it hit something and emit EM radiation. Where could I find any mathematical prove that the classical physics was not correct? Thanks.
The book I linked will explain exactly what you are asking.

But here's a few things:

1. Protons and electrons are charged. This means they respond to the Electromagnetic force. This force acts at a distance and doesn't require that the particle "hit" each other. (Which doesn't even make sense really, as at the quantum level objects are no longer thought of as little balls that bounce around.

2. Any acceleration of an electric charge will emit EM radiation. This is a proven fact. Since protons and electrons are charged they emit radiation when they accelerate.

3. An electron in an orbital around a nucleus can only exist in certain states that have very specific energy levels. This is referred to as being "quantized", hence were the term Quantum comes from. When an electron drops from a higher energy orbital into a lower energy orbital it emits a very specific amount of energy in the form of EM radiation.

You can find out more here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introdu...ntum_mechanics
Otakublade
#34
Jan23-13, 02:59 PM
P: 1
I am a lamen and as such I am sure any theory I have will be horrificly wrong but I do have a thought on how to explain the orbit and sutainability of atoms with protons and electrons. in our level of the universe a shuttle can orbit the earth due to the right velocity at the right distance from the planet and its gravitational pull between the two objects so that the pull down is countered by the velocity forward by the shuttle. in the case of electrons and protons the force is not gravity but electromagnetism and an electron is basicly pure negative energy and so my lamen theory is that the more energy the electron has the faster it goes and subsequently the stronger the attraction to the proton so no matter how strong the force to come down is the velocity matches to sustain an orbit. does that make any sense? and it also might translate into the effect of photons exciting an atom as well as it excites all of an atom and the electrons staying in their orbit even after the disruption from the photon yet pushing one electron out. the exciting of electron and proton increases the magnetic force between the two and accelerates the electrons and the electrons closest to the nucleus are the strongest and fastest causign more repulsion toward the other electrons above it and boom the outer most and weakest electron is both accelerated and repulsed more causing it to fly off. does that make any sense at all? I warned you I was a total lamen in the beginning so I expect a you idiot type of response but hoping that this lamen explanation makes some kind of sense on some level. oh and as for the super hero story chat perhaps you can repel objects by simultaniously creating negative charge to both the object and yourself to repel them without destroying the objects or like was said earlier to create a gravity field behind the object or to attract more mass behind an object to attract a gravity weapon by creating something of a "lightning" rod or rather gravity rod by having more mass behind the ball to attract it than in front of it. kind of like how magneto used his power in the x-men how he could move objects by manipulating magnetic fields both around himself but anywhere within his range to move objects almost as well as telekenisis.
Drakkith
#35
Jan23-13, 03:58 PM
Mentor
Drakkith's Avatar
P: 11,897
Quote Quote by Otakublade View Post
in our level of the universe a shuttle can orbit the earth due to the right velocity at the right distance from the planet and its gravitational pull between the two objects so that the pull down is countered by the velocity forward by the shuttle.
Kind of. The pull isn't countered in any way, it's simply that the shuttle is going so fast that as it falls towards the Earth, the Earth moves away under it at an equal rate.

in the case of electrons and protons the force is not gravity but electromagnetism and an electron is basicly pure negative energy
Not true. An electron is not "pure negative energy". Negative energy doesn't exist except in a mathematical way. And "pure energy" doesn't exist at all. Energy is a term used to describe how much work something is capable of performing. It manifests in reality in different ways depending on what you're talking about and in the context of what theory. For example General Relativity and Quantum Mechanics do not describe energy the same way.
and so my lamen theory is that the more energy the electron has the faster it goes and subsequently the stronger the attraction to the proton so no matter how strong the force to come down is the velocity matches to sustain an orbit. does that make any sense?
Not really. The attraction that the two particles feel on each other is based mostly on the distance between them. Any magnetic force felt by the particles would manifest differently I believe. Furthermore, as the electron "orbits" the nucleus, under classical mechanics it should radiate its energy away as EM radiation and fall into the nucleus. This does not happen and was initially explained about 90 years ago by Niels Bohr at the beginnings of Quantum Mechanics.

the exciting of electron and proton increases the magnetic force between the two and accelerates the electrons and the electrons closest to the nucleus are the strongest and fastest causign more repulsion toward the other electrons above it and boom the outer most and weakest electron is both accelerated and repulsed more causing it to fly off. does that make any sense at all?
Again, no. Keep in mind that charged particles are screaming past each other at near light speed all over the place in space. If your idea was correct one could expect to see those particles being captured by oppositely charged particles since the force between them would be incredibly high. But this does not happen.

I warned you I was a total lamen in the beginning so I expect a you idiot type of response but hoping that this lamen explanation makes some kind of sense on some level. oh and as for the super hero story chat perhaps you can repel objects by simultaniously creating negative charge to both the object and yourself to repel them without destroying the objects or like was said earlier to create a gravity field behind the object or to attract more mass behind an object to attract a gravity weapon by creating something of a "lightning" rod or rather gravity rod by having more mass behind the ball to attract it than in front of it. kind of like how magneto used his power in the x-men how he could move objects by manipulating magnetic fields both around himself but anywhere within his range to move objects almost as well as telekenisis.
The key is HOW could one do this. How do we alter an electromagnetic field? We move charges or magnets around or work with EM radiation. That's it. Each one of those concepts has very very specific rules and consequences and cannot be altered at a whim. We cannot "create" charges either. Nor can we alter gravity unless we move around LOTS of mass or energy. (Which itself requires energy in the first place) The field itself cannot be manipulated in any other way.
Imabuleva
#36
Oct11-13, 05:17 PM
P: 15
Quote Quote by no gun View Post
i still dont understand how the whole atom is excited when its just one electron rising a shell then dropping a shell once it releases the photon. the atom doesnt change just the electron.
thanks :D
I just wanted to add my two cents. Think about this classically as if you were to jump in the air. Is it the earth-you system that is in an excited, unstable state while you are in the air? Or is it just you that is in an excited state?

Remember that due to Newton's third law when you fall to the earth, the earth also falls to you; that is, the earth-you system collapses back into the unexcited state it was in before you jumped.


Register to reply

Related Discussions
Electron Proton Collisions and Electron Capture Introductory Physics Homework 1
How do you know if a particle is an electron/proton? General Physics 2
Proton, electron and coordinates Introductory Physics Homework 3
Neutron= proton + electron? High Energy, Nuclear, Particle Physics 74
Re: Proton, Not the Electron... General Physics 2