Recognitions:
Gold Member

Garrett Lisi bid to join Std. Model w/ gravity

Garrett, occasional visitor here, posted this today:

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0511120
Clifford bundle formulation of BF gravity generalized to the standard model
A. Garrett Lisi
24 pages
"The structure and dynamics of the standard model and gravity are described by a Clifford valued connection and its curvature."

congratulations.
 PhysOrg.com physics news on PhysOrg.com >> Kenneth Wilson, Nobel winner for physics, dies>> Two collider research teams find evidence of new particle Zc(3900)>> Scientists make first direct images of topological insulator's edge currents
 Recognitions: Gold Member Science Advisor just as additional context here is Not Even Wrong blog from earlier this year where John Baez comments and mentions Garrett in connection with the work by Greg Trayling that this paper draws on http://www.math.columbia.edu/~woit/wordpress/?p=173

Garrett Lisi bid to join Std. Model w/ gravity

Hey Marcus, thanks for mentioning my work. Everything went down just as you said -- I was playing around with the MacDowell-Mansouri idea recently revived by Freidel et al, and I was amazed to find all the other pieces coming together and fitting more or less perfectly. Thus the paper.
 Recognitions: Gold Member Science Advisor Hey thanks for visiting us. We should make a list of recent ventures at putting gravity together with Std Mdl. maybe they have underground tunnels connecting them I can think of yours and of the preon-spinnetwork approach. Can you suggest others?
 Well, the best attempts, IMO, are all old. The Kaluza-Klein idea is probably the best overall. But it has problems with chiral spinors, and more problems with "towers" of states. And the KK idea had a rebirth in the 80's with supergravity, and again with string theory. But I think the attempts to get the standard model out of string theory are pretty bad -- way too many unjustified assumptions. Trayling's model, and mine the addition of gravity to his, is really just the Kaluza-Klein idea wearing Clifford robes. In the "final" theory, if there is one, I think everything is going to have to come together at once. It's a lot to tackle, which is why most contemporary physicists don't want to touch it. There's also the taboo subject of trying to "derive" quantum mechanics from something. This whole field is also chalk full with crackpots, so it's damn near academic suicide to enter it. It also doesn't help that you probably can't, or shouldn't, be publishing a paper a month when you're working on the big questions.

Recognitions:
Gold Member
Staff Emeritus
 Quote by Marcus We should make a list of recent ventures at putting gravity together with Std Mdl
This is not quite that, but it is an interesting venture in combining matter into GR; sources of matter arise as changes of differentiable structure!

Differential Structures - the Geometrization of Quantum Mechanics

Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga, Helge Rose'

Abstract:
The usual quantization of a classical space-time field does not touch the non-geometrical character of quantum mechanics. We believe that the deep problems of unification of general relativity and quantum mechanics are rooted in this poor understanding of the geometrical character of quantum mechanics. In Einstein's theory gravitation is expressed by geometry of space-time, and the solutions of the field equation are invariant w.r.t. a certain equivalence class of reference frames. This class can be characterized by the differential structure of space-time. We will show that matter is the transition between reference frames that belong to different differential structures, that the set of transitions of the differential structure is given by a Temperley-Lieb algebra which is extensible to a $C^{*}$-algebra comprising the field operator algebra of quantum mechanics and that the state space of quantum mechanics is the linear space of the differential structures. Furthermore we are able to explain the appearance of the complex numbers in quantum theory. The strong relation to Loop Quantum Gravity is discussed in conclusion.
 Hey SA, that does look interesting. I'll give it a read. Here's the arxiv link for it: http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0511089 I also liked this paper by Ashtekar and Schilling: Geometrical Formulation of Quantum Mechanics http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9706069 Though it was more conservative. I do think quantum field theory is going to have to get a geometric description eventually. It's hard though. And there are a lot of wild and crazy ideas out there too. One of the wackier approaches is to try to do Bohmian quantum mechanics, with an objective reality and pilot waves, applied to field theory -- usually capitalizing on some scalar field.
 Recognitions: Gold Member Science Advisor http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/0511124 Spin Gauge Theory of Gravity in Clifford Space Matej Pavsic 9 pages, talk presented at the QG05 conference, 12-16 September 2005, Cala Gonone, Italy "A theory in which 16-dimensional curved Clifford space (C-space) provides a realization of Kaluza-Klein theory is investigated. No extra dimensions of spacetime are needed: "extra dimensions" are in C-space. We explore the spin gauge theory in C-space and show that the generalized spin connection contains the usual 4-dimensional gravity and Yang-Mills fields of the U(1)xSU(2)xSU(3) gauge group. The representation space for the latter group is provided by 16-component generalized spinors composed of four usual 4-component spinors, defined geometrically as the members of four independent minimal left ideals of Clifford algebra." garrett, is this someone you might want to get in touch with? EDIT since time hasnt run out and I can still edit, I will reply to your next post here! Garrett, glad to here you have ALREADY been in touch with Pavsic, whose work although different has some similar directions. the way it looks to me as (fairly naive) outsider is that it is good to have potential allies who can help each other get a hearing for their work. I was interested by this QG '05 conference held just this past September in SARDINIA. several people whose names I recognized were there, and also Pavsic whom I didnt know of until now.
 Hey Marcus, Yes, I've read Matej Pavsic's papers and corresponded with him. And our work shares many common lines. But I came to the conclusion after playing with it a bit that the standard model just doesn't naturally fit in Cl_{1,3}. This isn't to say I don't think his work is good, and he never says it does fit -- he just says "it might." But, most of the stuff I've laid out in my paper are independent of the dimension and signature of what Clifford algebra you want to work in. It's a fairly compact introduction to model building with Clifford valued forms. I just picked Trayling's model as the one that looks by far the best in the end, especially when joined with gravity.

 Quote by selfAdjoint This is not quite that, but it is an interesting venture in combining matter into GR; sources of matter arise as changes of differentiable structure! Differential Structures - the Geometrization of Quantum Mechanics Torsten Asselmeyer-Maluga, Helge Rose' Abstract: The usual quantization of a classical space-time field does not touch the non-geometrical character of quantum mechanics. We believe that the deep problems of unification of general relativity and quantum mechanics are rooted in this poor understanding of the geometrical character of quantum mechanics.
How is he defining a "topology change" as opposed to the a change in geometry? Thanks.

Recognitions:
Gold Member
Staff Emeritus
 Quote by Mike2 How is he defining a "topology change" as opposed to the a change in geometry? Thanks.

A geometry change in this paper is a curvature change. The authors show that unlike a diffeomorphism itself, a change of differential structure introduces an extra term in the connection, and hence a change in curvature of the manifold. They identify this with sources of matter.

A topologocical change would be something like the appearance of a new hole or handle on the manifold. The authors show that in spite of using radical topological surgery, cutting out tori and sewing them back in twisted or knotted, they do NOT introduce topology change.
 SA, The differential structures idea is very interesting. Unfortunately, I only have a poor physicist's understanding of the topic. I know a differential structure is an equivalence class of atlases, and an atlas is a collection of maps from a manifold to R^4 and transition functions. But I don't get how to enumerate the various differential structures, or why there are an infinite number of them for four dimensional manifolds, and one or a finite number for many others. Although I see it is directly related to the number of smooth structures over n dimensional spheres. But I don't understand that well either. Do you know of any introductory description of this stuff, preferably online? This would integrate very well with the paper I wrote if it works like they seem to be saying it does. My paper lays everything out, the standard model and gravity, as a single connection over a four dimensional base manifold. The differential structures idea could give a natural explanation for the quantization of such a connection.

 SA, The differential structures idea is very interesting. Unfortunately, I only have a poor physicist's understanding of the topic. I know a differential structure is an equivalence class of atlases, and an atlas is a collection of maps from a manifold to R^4 and transition functions.
Hi garrett, thanks for your interest in our paper.
In the physical point of view an atlas is set of reference frames which are needed to describe measurements at different space-time regions. With Einstein all reference frames are physically equal if the charts can be transformed by diffeomorphisms - the charts are compatible.
In 1,2,3 dimensions all charts (reference frames) are compatible. In 4 dimensions you can find one set S1 of charts which are compatible with all other charts in this set. But you can also find a further set S2, were all charts compatible in S2 but with no chart in S1. S1 and S2 are two different representants of two atlases. S1 and S2 belong to two different differential structures.
 But I don't get how to enumerate the various differential structures, or why there are an infinite number of them for four dimensional manifolds, and one or a finite number for many others. Although I see it is directly related to the number of smooth structures over n dimensional spheres. But I don't understand that well either. Do you know of any introductory description of this stuff, preferably online?
In mathematics the differential structures are called exotic smooth strctures. It can be shown that for a manifold (e.g. Dim=7 like Milnor) atlases exist which are not compatible (transfromable by diffeomorphisms). It is also known that for a compact 4-manifold the number of non-compatible altlases are countable infinite. But the structure of the set of differential structures was unknown. We have shown that the set of the changes of a differential structure is a Temperley-Lieb algebra and the set of differential structures is a Hilbert-space (Dim H = inf). This is a mathematical fact like: "the number of integers is countable infinite". Torsten is writing a book about Exotic Structures and Physics: Differential Topology and Spacetime Models
At the mean time you may looking for the mathematical papers about "Exotic Structures", but this is hard to cover.
 This would integrate very well with the paper I wrote if it works like they seem to be saying it does. My paper lays everything out, the standard model and gravity, as a single connection over a four dimensional base manifold. The differential structures idea could give a natural explanation for the quantization of such a connection.
This is very interesting, please sent me a copy: rose@first.fhg.de

 Quote by Helge Rosé Torsten is writing a book about Exotic Structures and Physics: Differential Topology and Spacetime Models

Secondly, what are they talking about when they mention singularities? Is this supposed to be a topological entity, or is this a scalar function defined on a manifold whose value goes to infinity at various points on the manifold? Thanks.

 Quote by Mike2 Do you have more info on this book, such as a table of contents? Secondly, what are they talking about when they mention singularities? Is this supposed to be a topological entity, or is this a scalar function defined on a manifold whose value goes to infinity at various points on the manifold? Thanks.
For the table ask Torsten (torsten@first.fhg.de).
In our paper the term singular has the usual mathematical meaning in the context of maps:
The map f: M -> N is singular at points were its differential
df: T_x M -> T_f(x) N
is vanishing. We do not mean poles etc. and it is not a topological entity (M,N are homeomorph). The map f is smooth but because of the singular points f^-1 does not exists (Like: a curve with a self intersection). f is a map between 4-manifolds, the set of singular points is 3-dimensional. We mean this singular 3d-set of map f when we use the term singularity - it is a 3d-region in the 4d space-time, like a particle. This singular set determines a 1-form -> the connection change between M, N -> differential structure change. Thus a 3d-set determines the transition of DS of a 4-MF.

Recognitions:
Gold Member
 Quote by Helge Rosé For the table ask Torsten (torsten@first.fhg.de). In our paper the term singular has the usual mathematical meaning in the context of maps: The map f: M -> N is singular at points were its differential df: T_x M -> T_f(x) N is vanishing. We do not mean poles etc. and it is not a topological entity (M,N are homeomorph). The map f is smooth but because of the singular points f^-1 does not exists (Like: a curve with a self intersection). f is a map between 4-manifolds, the set of singular points is 3-dimensional. We mean this singular 3d-set of map f when we use the term singularity - it is a 3d-region in the 4d space-time, like a particle. This singular set determines a 1-form -> the connection change between M, N -> differential structure change. Thus a 3d-set determines the transition of DS of a 4-MF.
thanks for the extra explanation. it is appreciated. sometimes just saying the same thing over (repeating what you already said in the paper with maybe a few more words) can be very helpful

it looks like we need to refer to Brans papers
I will try to find arxiv numbers

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9604048
Exotic Smoothness on Spacetime

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9405010
Exotic Smoothness and Physics*

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9404003
Localized Exotic Smoothness*

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9212003
Exotic Differentiable Structures and General Relativity*

*these are cited in the recent paper

we also need to be able to check out some Sladowski papers
I am getting sleepy, and also I am worried now that this approach could be crazy. It looks too good. maybe I had better go to bed and try to understand some more tomorrow. thanks for your help so far Helge

 Similar discussions for: Garrett Lisi bid to join Std. Model w/ gravity Thread Forum Replies Beyond the Standard Model 31 General Physics 5 General Physics 5 Beyond the Standard Model 8 General Physics 0