Calculating the Collapse of a Bohr Atom: Larmor's Formula for Power Radiation

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the theoretical calculation of the collapse of a Bohr atom, specifically focusing on the application of Larmor's formula for power radiation in the context of an electron orbiting a proton. Participants explore the implications of classical physics in a quantum framework, questioning the validity of the Bohr model under certain assumptions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to calculate the time it would take for an electron to crash into a proton in a Bohr atom, using Larmor's formula for radiated power.
  • Another participant asserts that quantum theory indicates such a collapse will not occur, suggesting that the question may stem from a misunderstanding of the Bohr model's limitations.
  • A different participant provides a mathematical framework using Larmor's formula, suggesting a method to derive a differential equation for energy over time, leading to a potential calculation of collapse time.
  • One participant emphasizes that the inquiry serves to illustrate the inadequacies of the Bohr model in the context of quantum mechanics, framing it as a mathematical exercise rather than a physical reality.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relevance and validity of the Bohr model, with some asserting that quantum mechanics negates the possibility of collapse, while others engage in a mathematical exploration of the scenario. No consensus is reached regarding the implications of the calculations or the validity of the Bohr model.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the limitations of applying classical physics to quantum systems, particularly in the context of energy calculations and the assumptions underlying the Bohr model. There are unresolved mathematical steps and dependencies on definitions that are not fully explored.

Ed Quanta
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I have a question. Suppose we have an electron orbiting around a proton in a Bohr atom. It is accelerating due to centripetal motion yet traveling at v<<c so Newtownian physics applies. Since it is accelerating, it is radiating energy. Assuming we are using larmor's formula for power radiated, how would we calculate how fast it will take for the electron to crash into the proton, and this cause the Bohr atom to collapse?
 
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What is the point of your question? Quantum theory says it won't happen.
 
What is the point of your question? Quantum theory says it won't happen.
It's sounds like an exercise from modern physics class. A reasonable exercise too, unless you take everything you hear at face value, or don't value history.

Anyway, I'll try to add something actually useful and constructive towards answering your question.

The Larmor formula tells us (remember, we take E to be negative)
[tex] P=-\frac{dE}{dt} = \frac{e^2a^2}{6 \pi \epsilon_0 c^3}[/tex]
As usual, take [tex]a=v^2/r[/tex]. Now, we also know that the classical radius is
[tex] \qquad r = - \frac{e^2}{8 \pi \epsilon_0 E}[/tex]
and
[tex]\qquad <br /> v^2 = \frac{2E}m[/tex]
Now you should be able to put all that together and get simple separable differential equation for dE/dt that you can integrate from the starting energy (about -14 eV) to the final energy (negative infinity) that will give you the time for collapse.
 
The point of the question is to show that Bohr's model is not the final model of an atom for quantum mechanics. Its just a mathematical exercise using only Newtonian physics. Thank you, Big Red Dot.
 

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