Understanding the Science Behind Fire: The Phenomenon of Upward Movement

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the phenomenon of fire and its upward movement, exploring the science behind flames, their behavior in different environments, and implications for rocket thrust. The scope includes conceptual understanding and technical explanations related to combustion and fluid dynamics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that fire appears to move upwards due to hot air and firing photons, questioning if this understanding is correct.
  • Another participant explains that fire involves vaporization of fuel, which burns and radiates light, with hot air creating an updraft that causes upward movement.
  • A participant notes that flames behave differently in zero-gravity environments, prompting interest in visual examples.
  • Links to resources about flames in zero-g are shared, highlighting the absence of rising air shaping the flame.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of hot air rebounding back to rocket jets during takeoff, suggesting it may enhance thrust.
  • One participant expresses curiosity about how this effect would manifest on the Moon or Mars, questioning its significance due to the thrust involved.
  • A later reply challenges the idea that convection significantly affects thrust, stating that the high thrust and speed of rockets minimize its impact.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying views on the role of convection in rocket thrust and the behavior of flames in different environments. No consensus is reached regarding the extent of these effects.

Contextual Notes

Some statements depend on specific conditions, such as gravity or environmental factors, which may not be fully explored or defined in the discussion.

Mattius_
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Fire always points up. My thoughts are, the hot air it creates travels upwards, and with that, so do the firing photons within the atoms of the air, which would then create the image of the fire traveling upwards.

Am i right?
 
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Typically fire works something like this:
The fuel vaporizes, then the vapors burn. Since the vapors are hot, they radiate visible light. Since the air around them is hot, there is an updraft, so the hot material travels upwards.

In zero-g environments flames look different.
 
Originally posted by NateTG
In zero-g environments flames look different.

I'd like to see that!
Got a link?
 
Yep. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast12may_1.htm

No gravity, no rising air to shape the flame.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yep. http://science.nasa.gov/headlines/y2000/ast12may_1.htm

Neat! So that means that when a spaceship is taking off, and the jets are facing down, you get more thrust because the hot air is rebounding back to the jets?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
That is SO COOL! How would that effect take off on the moon or mars?
Or would it matter because of the giant thrust?
 
Originally posted by Mattius_
Neat! So that means that when a spaceship is taking off, and the jets are facing down, you get more thrust because the hot air is rebounding back to the jets?
Thats more of "An equal and opposite reaction" Newton, flames burning, and the currents of air, that influence there shape, is more of a Chemistry > 'mixing' probelm/solution, with physics in the heat exchanges and molecular/atomic (subatomic, but I don't think/know if that's been explored) activities that arise as a result of all of the event(s) sequencing...sorta...
 
Originally posted by Mattius_
Neat! So that means that when a spaceship is taking off, and the jets are facing down, you get more thrust because the hot air is rebounding back to the jets?
Not really - the thrust is so high and the speed of the rocket so fast that convection has a minimal effect.
 

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