Why are elementary particles point-like in spacetime?

[StephenSwires]

Elementary particles and energy must not exist in spacetime. They give rise to spacetime. That is why there is relativity and the uncertainty principle: why they are point particles without dimension in space.

 

[arivero]

More or less this was the postulate of the first atomic theory. There are particles to divide -thus defining or creating- the vacuum, and there is vacuum to let the particles move. As the Yang/Ying symbol, they are complementary conceps.

The other alternative is to include the distance between the properties of a particle. This is the alternate way, string theory.

 

[StephenSwires]

The elementary particles are not divisible or they would not be elementary. Also, they are better described as points.
Energy is a characteristic of points(relative to other points).
If the points with their energy give rise to spacetime then a proper description must include their relationships to surrounding points, but it would not be described by distance between them since the distance is a product or effect. The points must be properly described in a coordinate system different from the spacetime coordinate system.

 

[LURCH]

Originally posted by StephenSwires
The elementary particles are not divisible or they would not be elementary.

A slight miscommunication here, I think. Arivero said there are particles to divide the vaccum, not just "particles to devide".

 

[arivero]

Yes, I have just learn -understood- that it is dangerous to abuse of the "-" sign.

 

[arivero]

Originally posted by StephenSwires

Energy is a characteristic of points(relative to other points).
If the points with their energy give rise to spacetime then a proper description must include their relationships to surrounding points, but it would not be described by distance between them since the distance is a product or effect. The points must be properly described in a coordinate system different from the spacetime coordinate system.

Energy and momentum are characteristic of points, time and space are characteristic of intervals. It is a dual construction. Fourier transform in one side, and Planck constant on another, control this duality.

 

[Mazuz]

Originally posted by StephenSwires
Elementary particles and energy must not exist in spacetime. They give rise to spacetime. That is why there is relativity and the uncertainty principle: why they are point particles without dimension in space.

That makes a whole lot of sense to me. Space and time are simply a product of relationships. Lee Smolin talks about this in his book "quantum gravity" where he mentions that a theory of everything needs to understand that space and time are not a back ground to the physical universe, but arise from it.

 

[StephenSwires]

Originally posted by Mazuz
That makes a whole lot of sense to me. Space and time are simply a product of relationships. Lee Smolin talks about this in his book "quantum gravity" where he mentions that a theory of everything needs to understand that space and time are not a back ground to the physical universe, but arise from it.

My point exactly. This is very hard to keep straight in one's thinking.
Spacetime must be created by the points exchanging energy.
Spacetime varies according to the points and their energy therefore it makes perfect sense that gravity is a "warping" of spacetime by mass (points with energy).
This explains why time can only flow in one direction.
This also explains why time stops at the speed of light and why the speed of light cannot be exceeded (in spacetime).

 

[arivero]

Good points, but one must ask "where the information about distance is stored?". If in the link, we are on QFT realm, if in the particle, we are in the string realm.

 

[StephenSwires]

Originally posted by arivero
Good points, but one must ask "where the information about distance is stored?". If in the link, we are on QFT realm, if in the particle, we are in the string realm.

I believe it legitimizes an underlying theory such as string theory or QFT but needs to be kept clearly in mind while developing the theory. A ToE does not use spacetime dimensions to describe the fundamental theory because they arise from it. It doesn't matter how many dimensions are used because they do not need to be thought of as a continuation of or include spacetime dimensions.
Perhaps all points could be described as existing on a single superstring based upon a beginning point Alpha and an ending point Omega. All relationship information such as that giving rise to distance (there is no distance in the underlying coordinate system because that is spacetime information) would be in the dimensions of the superstring.