Does Weight Change with Reference Frame? A Question Explored

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on whether a body's weight changes with the reference frame, particularly in the context of an accelerating frame, such as a rocketship. Participants explore the implications of different frames of reference on the measurement of weight, including the role of acceleration and relativistic effects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions if a body's weight changes with the reference frame, specifically asking about measurements on a scale when stationary with the scale versus moving with the object.
  • Another participant asserts that weight readings can change based on the reference frame, particularly in an accelerating frame, introducing the factor of gamma = sqrt(1-v^2/c^2) for scales oriented perpendicular to acceleration.
  • A follow-up inquiry seeks clarification on the meaning of "reading the body's weight on the scale" and whether it should be independent of the observer's motion relative to the body.
  • Another participant discusses the concept of force in different frames, introducing the notion of 4-force and its relation to relativistic mechanics, emphasizing the transformation properties of 4-vectors via the Lorentz transform.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on how weight is perceived in various reference frames, with some agreeing on the influence of acceleration while others question the independence of weight measurements from the observer's motion. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these perspectives.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference complex concepts such as 4-forces and relativistic effects, indicating that assumptions about the orientation of the scale and the nature of the observer's motion may significantly impact the discussion.

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Sorry for the trivial (and certainly already covered) question.
Does a body's weight change with the ref. frame? If I had a very long scale on which the body can move without friction, would I observe the scale to sign different values according if I am stationary with the scale or with the object?
 
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Basically, yes. If you assume that the scale is in an accelerating rocketship (to provide the acceleration needed to impart weight) the reading on the scale (assumed to be oriented so the pans are perpendicular to the direction of acceleration) will increase by a factor of gamma = sqrt(1-v^2/c^2).

Note that if the scale isn't oriented perpendicular to the direction of acceleration, the problem becomes a lot more complex.
 
pervect said:
Basically, yes. If you assume that the scale is in an accelerating rocketship (to provide the acceleration needed to impart weight) the reading on the scale (assumed to be oriented so the pans are perpendicular to the direction of acceleration) will increase by a factor of gamma = sqrt(1-v^2/c^2).

Note that if the scale isn't oriented perpendicular to the direction of acceleration, the problem becomes a lot more complex.
First of all, thanks for the answer.
Can you explain how this is possible? Which is the meaning of "reading the body's weight on the scale" for any observer? Shouldn't it be independent of the fact the observer moves or not with respect to the body?
 
The scale has its own frame - the main point of interest is the force on the scale in its frame, but it is possible to define the notion of force relativistically for any observer.

Relativistically, this is most conveniently handled by the concept of a 4-force. If we assume our mass is pointlike (or at least very small), we can find the 4-force by multiplying the mass m of our weight by the 4-acceleration.

The 4-acceleration is just the rate of change of the 4-velocity with respect to proper time.

See for instance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_relativity#Force

Another way of saying this - the three-force is the rate of change of the momentum of the mass m with respect to coordinate time. The four-force is the rate of change of the energy-momentum 4-vector with respect to proper time. So the 4-force has one additional component (the rate of change of energy with respect to proper time), and is computed with respect to proper time rather than coordinate time.

The reason to use 4-forces rather than 3-forces is that they transform via the Lorentz transform. In fact, this is a property of any of the various 4-vectors that I've mentioned - all 4 vectors transform in an identical manner (that's their defining characteristic) - i.e. they transform via the Lorentz transform.
 
Thank you very much.
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