Conserved Charge Inconsistency: Hamiltonian v. Lagrangian

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the potential inconsistency between the definitions of conserved charge and conserved current in Hamiltonian and Lagrangian formulations of field theory. Participants explore the implications of these definitions, particularly in the context of boundary conditions and the conservation of charge in different spacetime geometries.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether there is an inconsistency between conserved charge and conserved current as defined in Hamiltonian and Lagrangian formulations, citing specific equations related to conserved charge.
  • Another participant challenges the assertion that the last integral is non-zero, suggesting that if the charge is constant, the current should also be zero.
  • A third participant agrees that a contradiction exists, noting that the last integral is not zero in the presence of boundaries.
  • One participant highlights the importance of boundary terms, especially in curved manifolds as encountered in General Relativity, while noting that in Minkowski space, hypersurface integrals are typically chosen to be zero.
  • Another participant inquires about the condition that the current \( T^{i0} \) equals zero at the boundary.
  • A later reply states that if a volume is chosen where charge is conserved, it implies no net charge is flowing in or out of the boundary, which relates to the earlier condition mentioned.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the implications of boundary conditions on the conservation of charge and current, with no consensus reached on the nature of the inconsistency or the conditions required for conservation.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion is influenced by the choice of spacetime geometry (Minkowski vs. curved manifolds) and the treatment of boundary terms, which may affect the conservation laws being discussed.

kakarukeys
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Is there an inconsistency between the definition of conserved charge and conserved current in Hamiltonian and Lagrangian formulation?

For example, [tex]H = \int T^{00} d^3x[/tex] is a conserved charge,
[tex]\frac{dH}{dt} = \{H, H\} = 0[/tex]

But we have [tex]\partial_\mu T^{\mu\nu} = 0[/tex] implies
[tex]\int (\partial_\mu T^{\mu 0}) d^3x = \int (\partial_0 T^{00} + \partial_i T^{i0}) d^3x = 0[/tex] so it seems
[tex]\frac{d}{dt}\int T^{00}d^3x = - \int \partial_i T^{i0} d^3x \neq 0[/tex]

I'm very puzzled.
 
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Why is the last integral non-zero? If the charge is constant, shouldn't the current be zero?
 
So there's a contradiction. In general if there is a boundary, the last integral is not zero.
 
Yes, of course. It's the case on curved manifolds which occur in GR, for example. The boundary terms are very important. However, as it's usually presented in field theory in Minkowski space, the hypersurface integrals are always chosen to be 0.
 
So is there a condition
[tex]T^{i0} = 0[/tex] at boundary?
 
If you take a volume in which the charge is conserved that will mean there is no net charge flowing in or out of the boundary, which is the last condition you mention (integrated over the surface).
 

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