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Heaven or Hell?

by Remnant
Tags: heaven, hell
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Remnant
#1
Oct1-07, 09:44 AM
P: 19
Let us say, when a person dies. He comes to a path (purgitory) or so. He walks down this path and gets to a fork in the road like a "Y". One gnome guards each path, one gnome tells falsehoods, the other tells the truth. One of the paths leads to heaven and one of the paths leads to hell.
*You do not know which path is which, or which gnome is which*

&You only have 1 question to ask both gnomes, and if you ask one know a question, you have to ask the other gnome the exact same question- in turn that will use up your one question!

What is the answer(let us say there are no flaws).
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Remnant
#2
Oct1-07, 02:40 PM
P: 19
a rivision of the above post..
*what would be one question you could ask, that would alow you to know what path leads to heaven and what path leads to hell?***
Jimmy Snyder
#3
Oct1-07, 05:12 PM
P: 2,179
Answer 1:

While pointing to one of the paths, Ask one gnome "If I asked you if this is the road to hell, would you say yes?"
In this case, you don't need the second gnome. It's a double question and the liar must lie twice to answer it, and the two lies cancel each other out.


Answer 2:

Point back to the road from which you came and ask one of the gnomes "Is this the road to hell?". Then you will know if the gnome is a liar and so you will know if the other gnome is a liar. Then point to one of the paths and ask the other gnome the same question.

eom

Remnant
#4
Oct4-07, 08:39 AM
P: 19
Heaven or Hell?

sorry if i did not specify but you can only ask the gnomes one question and the question has to be asked to both of the gnomes.. so i have to discard your Answer 2, which was probably my fault from lack of explination. i came up with ask "what would the other gnome say is the path he guarding" and like your answer one. the gnomes would lie twice and that would cancel out. If one answered "hell" you would know the path he is on would be "heaven" vice-versa.
Jimmy Snyder
#5
Oct4-07, 10:57 AM
P: 2,179
Quote Quote by Remnant View Post
i came up with ask "what would the other gnome say is the path he guarding" and like your answer one. the gnomes would lie twice and that would cancel out. If one answered "hell" you would know the path he is on would be "heaven" vice-versa.
No, in your case there would be exactly one lie in the answer no matter which road and which gnome. That is why the road is to hell when the answer is heaven, and vice versa.
Remnant
#6
Oct4-07, 11:37 AM
P: 19
oh yeah your right.. i apologize.. yeah so the gnome would have to tell the truth about lying and the other would have to lie about telling the truth.. .therefore not llie twice.. but yeah.. but would my answer be valid? or just disreguarded.. when i was in high school.. we got half the school trying to figure that out.. it took me 2 days and my friend 3 days to figure it out.. i just want to verify if there are any other possible answers. which in your case yes, for your answer 1
Proggle
#7
Oct4-07, 10:25 PM
P: 84
How about...

If honest gnomes go to heaven and lying ones go to hell, which way do you deserve to go?


And you only need one gnome!
billiards
#8
Oct5-07, 08:51 AM
P: 748
"Are you a liar?"
Evo
#9
Oct5-07, 11:41 AM
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Quote Quote by billiards View Post
"Are you a liar?"
They would both answer no.

Quote Quote by Proggle View Post
How about...

If honest gnomes go to heaven and lying ones go to hell, which way do you deserve to go?


And you only need one gnome!
They would both respond Heaven.

Quote Quote by Remnant View Post
i came up with ask "what would the other gnome say is the path he guarding" and like your answer one. the gnomes would lie twice and that would cancel out. If one answered "hell" you would know the path he is on would be "heaven" vice-versa.
If you ask the lier what path the truthful one was on he'd say "hell" if he was in fact on the path to heaven or "heaven" if he was on the path to hell. Then when you asked the truthful one which path the lier is on he'd tell the truth and say either heaven or hell, depending on which ever was true, I don't see how this solves anything.
Jimmy Snyder
#10
Oct5-07, 12:04 PM
P: 2,179
Quote Quote by Evo View Post
They would both respond Heaven.
No, they would respond by saying which way they would go, not by where their destination was. I.e. each would say "I would go this way" and point to the road to heaven.

Quote Quote by Evo View Post
If you ask the lier what path the truthful one was on he'd say "hell" if he was in fact on the path to heaven or "heaven" if he was on the path to hell. Then when you asked the truthful one which path the lier is on he'd tell the truth and say either heaven or hell, depending on which ever was true, I don't see how this solves anything.
I'm pretty sure that if you go through the cases, you will find that Remnant's solution works as well. Because of the nature of the answerers, you can be sure that the answer will contain one lie and one truth. I.e. exactly one lie. Put another way, the Truther will truthfully report the liar's lie and the liar will lie about the truther's truth.
Proggle
#11
Oct5-07, 12:18 PM
P: 84
Quote Quote by Evo View Post

They would both respond Heaven.
The question was "which way" not "to where", so either one of them would point towards the way to heaven.
Evo
#12
Oct5-07, 12:56 PM
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Quote Quote by jimmysnyder View Post
No, they would respond by saying which way they would go, not by where their destination was. I.e. each would say "I would go this way" and point to the road to heaven.

I'm pretty sure that if you go through the cases, you will find that Remnant's solution works as well. Because of the nature of the answerers, you can be sure that the answer will contain one lie and one truth. I.e. exactly one lie. Put another way, the Truther will truthfully report the liar's lie and the liar will lie about the truther's truth.
If honest gnomes go to heaven and lying ones go to hell, which way do you deserve to go?
This question is asking them to respond with an answer, not point in any direction.

I don't see anyone asking them to point.
Proggle
#13
Oct5-07, 01:01 PM
P: 84
Quote Quote by Evo View Post
This question is asking them to respond with an answer, not point in any direction.

I don't see anyone asking them to point.
The question is still asking them to identify the way, not the final destination.

It's irrelevant if the answer is "I would take the right way", or a pointing finger in that direction.
Jimmy Snyder
#14
Oct5-07, 01:03 PM
P: 2,179
Quote Quote by Evo View Post
This question is asking them to respond with an answer, not point in any direction.

I don't see anyone asking them to point.
True, but irrelevant. They still have to answer the question that was asked, either by pointing or by some other means. Perhaps I should have said they would point out the road to heaven.
Jimmy Snyder
#15
Oct5-07, 01:21 PM
P: 2,179
I like the logic of Proggle's solution, and after all, it is a logic puzzle. But it does have a minor flaw. The danger is that the answer will be "I deserve to take the road to heaven.". This would not be helpful. It is easily fixed though, the logic can be preserved with a question like:

If honest gnomes go to heaven and lying ones go to hell, do you deserve to go to the left or to the right?

-or-

You could point to one of the roads and ask:
If honest gnomes go to heaven and lying ones go to hell, do you deserve to go this way?

-or-

If honest gnomes go to heaven and lying ones go to hell, do you deserve to take the road that you guard?

eom
Rogerio
#16
Oct5-07, 05:16 PM
P: 403
Quote Quote by Remnant View Post
One gnome guards each path, one gnome tells falsehoods, the other tells the truth. One of the paths leads to heaven and one of the paths leads to hell.
I would just say:

"If someone asked you whether your path leads to heaven, would you answer yes?"

And the answer would be true.
Evo
#17
Oct5-07, 05:58 PM
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Quote Quote by jimmysnyder View Post
True, but irrelevant. They still have to answer the question that was asked, either by pointing or by some other means. Perhaps I should have said they would point out the road to heaven.
Since this is supposed to use logic, it would be illogical to assume that if you asked them a question that instead of answering they would merely point. If Spoc was here you would have gotten that Vulcan pinch thing he does.

Pointing works for me.
Evo
#18
Oct5-07, 06:02 PM
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Quote Quote by Rogerio View Post
I would just say:

"If someone asked you whether your path leads to heaven, would you answer yes?"

And the answer would be true.
No, for example, if the lier is on the path to heaven, he would say no, so the truthful one would be on the path to hell and also say no. You've got 2 gnomes both saying no, so you have no idea which path they are on. Same if they were on opposite paths, they'd both say yes.


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