Register to reply 
Gravitational SelfInteraction 
Share this thread: 
#1
Jan1208, 04:42 PM

P: 532

I've been wondering about the effects of the gravitational interaction of a body on itself according to the laws of general relativity. The general relativity courses that I have taken in the past haven't touched on this issue, and I wonder if anyone on this forum would be able to help.
In classical electrodynamics, an electrically charged object interacts with itself so that its effective mass is greater than its bare mass. For point particles, this leads to problems as the contribution to the effective mass due to electromagnetic interactions is infinite. Are there similar issues with general relativity? Does gravitational selfinteraction lead to a change in the effective mass of an object? If there is such an effect, what sign is it, and is this "gravitational mass" always finite? By a naive comparison with electrodynamics I'd expect the gravitational field to reduce the mass, because the different parts of the body attract each other rather than repel. 


#2
Jan1208, 05:09 PM

P: 126

[tex] \nabla^2\Phi=4\pi G\rho [/tex] Thus, as electrodymical systems and gravitonic systems are governed by the exact same equation, it will necessarily yield the same solutions and same conclusions. So in the newtonian limit, the answer would be yes. Wouldn't dare take a guess at the true relativistic limit though. 


#3
Jan1208, 05:19 PM

P: 532

The problem with that limit is that gravitational and electromagnetic forces between bodies are instantaneous and there is no adjustment to the bare mass in either case.
I think maybe using linearized gravity (but not the low speed limit) with the relevant gauge choice would be the way to go though. 


#4
Jan1208, 07:05 PM

P: 532

Gravitational SelfInteraction
Using the weak field approximation given here, it is possible to derive the following for the "energy density" of a grativational field.
[tex] \frac{1}{8\pi G}(B^2+E^2) [/tex] Dividing this by [tex]c^2[/tex] would give the contribution to the effective mass, so as I was thinking, the effective mass should be reduced by the presence of the gravitational field. This is only the weak field approximation though. I don't know whether the effective mass of a black hole is finite. 


#5
Jan1208, 07:12 PM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
P: 7,594

Commonly used defintions of mass are Komar mass, ADM mass, and Bondi mass. ADM mass is one of the more powerful concepts, but Komar mass is probably the easiest to use. GR can be interpreted in terms of an action principle using Hilbert's action, so Noethers theorem applies. In fact, Noether's theorem was specifically developed to solve some of the issues that arise with mass in GR. By Noether's theorem, any system with a time translation symmetry will have a conserved energy. This energy can be divided by c^2 and interpreted as a mass. This particular form of mass is the Komar mass. Your intuition is generally correct in the Newtonian limit (gravitational selfinteraction does lower the mass of a system). To go beyond the Newtonian limit with any degree of rigor, you need to reformulate the whole concept of mass in a nonnewtonian manner. You might want to look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=177903144 and http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?...ldid=170982833 Wald, "Genreal Relativity", has a good discussion of Komar mass. http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/physic...energy_gr.html has a good nontechnical overview. Aside from Noether's theorem, there are other ways of approaching the issue of mass  ADM mass was originally derived from a Hamiltonian formulation, and other common approaches use the idea of psuedotensors. Noether's theorem is IMO still one of the best ways to deal with the fundamental issues (as compared to the other approaches). YMMV. 


#6
Jan1208, 07:39 PM

P: 532

Thanks Pervect, that's very interesting. I'm familiar with Noether's theorem, but had no idea that it was developed especially to deal with issues in GR. I'll have a read through your links.
Btw, if the weak field approximation for the energy density in my previous post is valid, I just worked out that a spherical body of mass M and radius R should have a gravitational correction to its mass of [itex]3GM^2/ 5Rc^2[/itex] which for the Earth is [itex]2.5\times 10^{15}\textrm{kg}[/itex], reducing its mass by about 40 billionths of a percent. 


#7
Jan1408, 12:07 PM

Emeritus
Sci Advisor
P: 7,594

If you're already familiar with Noether's theorem, you might find this link helpful. (This link is present inside the wikipedia article, but buried a bit deeply where it might take you a while to stumble across it). It discusses some of the history of Noether, Hilbert, and the concept of energy in GR.



#8
Jan1408, 01:27 PM

PF Gold
P: 1,156

That gives a result which was somewhat surprising to me but I was subsequently told is a quite conventional approach in quantum approaches to gravitational field theory, which is to use a model that assumes the total energy of a system is made up of the integral of the proper massenergy density multiplied by the multiplicative potential at that location (which is decreased by DOUBLE the potential energy relative to the original rest mass, because of the effect of masses on themselves and one another) plus a positive effective field energy with the same magnitude as above (1/2 of field^2) which is equal to the potential energy (plus any kinetic energy). This means that in a static configuration (such as a single central mass), the total energy is equal to the original energy of the component masses minus the potential energy, as in Newtonian theory, giving the same result as the Komar mass, but in a different way. 


#9
Jan1408, 04:48 PM

P: 32




Register to reply 
Related Discussions  
What is the difference between van der waals interaction and casimir interaction?  Quantum Physics  1  
Simulating the gravitational interaction between two material points  Astronomy & Astrophysics  3  
Does gravitational waves participate in gravitation interaction?  Special & General Relativity  2  
Gravitational Force, the derivative of Gravitational Potential Energy?  Classical Physics  3  
Interaction of light with the quantum gravitational field  Beyond the Standard Model  10 