Why does the flux rule work in all cases?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the flux rule in electromagnetism, specifically why it appears to apply universally across various scenarios involving induced electromotive force (emf) and magnetic flux changes. Participants explore theoretical implications, derivations, and connections between different cases of magnetic flux variation.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes the flux rule and presents four specific cases where it applies, questioning the underlying connection between them.
  • Another participant asserts that the flux rule is derived from the conservation of energy, referencing Lenz's law and providing a mathematical derivation of induced emf.
  • There is a request for clarification on the equations presented, indicating some difficulty in understanding the technical details shared by another participant.
  • A participant references a previous discussion on related topics, suggesting that no consensus was reached in that earlier conversation.
  • Another participant acknowledges the relevance of a linked discussion, indicating interest in further exploration of the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the derivation and implications of the flux rule. While some propose connections to conservation principles, others highlight unresolved questions and previous discussions without reaching a consensus.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the complexity of the equations and concepts involved, indicating that assumptions and definitions may not be fully clarified. There is also mention of prior discussions that did not lead to conclusions, suggesting ongoing uncertainty in the topic.

lugita15
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The flux rule states that the emf induced in any loop is given by the rate of change of magnetic flux through that loop. In other words,[tex]\epsilon=-\frac{\partial}{\partial t}\int\int\vec{B}\cdot d\vec{A}.[/tex].
The thing that troubles me is the coincidence that the flux rule works in ALL cases. If a loop rotates at a constant angular velocity in the presence of a uniform constant magnetic field, the emf in the loop is given by the flux rule. If the magnitude of a uniform magnetic field perpendicular to a loop increases at a constant rate, the emf is still given by the flux rule. What is the connection between these four cases, that the flux rule works in all four?:
1. The circuit is stationary, and the magnetic flux increases (or decreases) due to a region of magnetic field moving into (or out of) the the area of the circuit.
2. The region of the magnetic field is stationary, and the magnetic flux increases (or decreases) due to (part of) the circuit moving moving into (or out of) a region of magnetic field.
3. There is a constant, uniform magnetic field, and the magnetic flux is sinusoidal due to the loop rotating with constant angular velocity.
4. The circuit is stationary, and the magnetic flux increases due to increase in the magnitude of the uniform magnetic field directed perpendicular to the circuit.
In all cases, emf=-(time derivative of magnetic flux).
Einstein famously proved in his "On the Electrodynamics of Moving Bodies," his first paper on the special theory of relativity, that due to the Lorentz transformations of the electric and magnetic fields, case 1 and case 2 are equivalent. How are case 3 and case 4 related to the each other, and to the first two cases?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You in Advance.
P.S. One of the reasons I am asking this is that Feynman raises similar questions in his Lectures on Physics. He says in Volume II Page 17-2:
"We know of no other place in physics where such a simple and accurate general principle requires for its real understanding an analysis in terms of two different phenomena. Usually such a beautiful generalization is found to stem from a single deep underlying principle. Nevertheless, in this case there does not appear to be any such profound implication."
 
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Very simple,
It is a general equation valid in all situations-Thia means there should be a general principle used for DERIVING this equation...INDEED IT IS THE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY(given by lenz's law) used...LETS SEE HOW.

We are interested to find INDUCED EMF,V...

Now V= work done on unit charge by magnetic force...

magnetic force =q(v.B.sinθ)

now , work done = F.dy = q(V.B.sinθ).dy

V= [q(v.B.sinθ).dy]/q

so,V=v.B.dy.sinθ.cosØ

now v=dx/dt

so,V=dx.dy.B.sinθ.cosØ/dt

V= -B.dA/dt = B.dA.(-cosω)/dt ... where [-cosω = sinθ.cosØ]

So.Mr.Feynman has said right about "DEEP UNDERLYNG PRINCIPLE"


i hope u will like it...and apply in all your situations undoubtfuly because it is derived from GENERAL LAW OF CONSERVATION OF ENERGY...

Please reply if u like it...
 
mr.survive said:
Very simple,
It is a general equation valid in all situations-Thia means there should be a general principle used for DERIVING this equation...INDEED IT IS THE CONSERVATION OF ENERGY(given by lenz's law) used...LETS SEE HOW.

We are interested to find INDUCED EMF,V...

Now V= work done on unit charge by magnetic force...

magnetic force =q(v.B.sinθ)

now , work done = F.dy = q(V.B.sinθ).dy

V= [q(v.B.sinθ).dy]/q

so,V=v.B.dy.sinθ.cosØ

now v=dx/dt

so,V=dx.dy.B.sinθ.cosØ/dt

V= -B.dA/dt = B.dA.(-cosω)/dt ... where [-cosω = sinθ.cosØ]

So.Mr.Feynman has said right about "DEEP UNDERLYNG PRINCIPLE"


i hope u will like it...and apply in all your situations undoubtfuly because it is derived from GENERAL LAW OF CONSERVATION OF ENERGY...

Please reply if u like it...
Could you please elaborate on your response? I had some difficulty understanding the equations you wrote. If possible, could you use Latex to write the equations.

Any further help would be greatly appreciated.
Thank You in Advance.
 
well time to bring in old topics :smile:
lugita hope u remeber our discussion and ofcourse we didn't reach any possible conclusion in our discussion here

well after lots of discussion finally i and my friends got http://www.mathlinks.ro/viewtopic.php?p=1036135#1036135 astounding( and i mean it) result!
look at the last post of mine over there...if u have anything to add surely do it it's one of the most interesting things that i have seen in Electromagnetics.
 
Last edited:
pardesi said:
well time to bring in old topics :smile:
lugita hope u remeber our discussion and ofcourse we didn't reach any possible conclusion in our discussion here
Yes, that thread is precisely the reason I posted this question.

As to the other link you posted, I will have to examine it later in greater detail.
 

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