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Weight lifting

by WarPhalange
Tags: lifting, weight
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WarPhalange
#1
Nov29-08, 08:59 PM
P: 343
Quote Quote by Proton Soup View Post
so, how much you bench, WP?
Why don't we just skip the formalities and compare penis sizes right now?

it's not as if guys try to get injured, that would just set back their training. but it happens all the time. maybe it's just a small tear in a muscle that shows up as a bruise, but it's common. actually pulling a tendon off a bone happens less frequently, but still more often than you might think.
Sure, but that just means they pushed themselves too hard. Congrats! You now cannot work that part of your body for a significant amount of time. How strong will that make you?

now, you may not be getting injured, but i suspect you haven't made much progress, either, noob.
Holy crap you're right! I'll go try and deadlift 700lbs so I can tear my hamstrings and dislocate a disk in my spine. That will make me stronger, right????


If you get injured in training, you are doing it wrong or there was an accident. Period. Not to mention, muscle doesn't even regenerate fast enough for it to make sense to go balls to the wall every single time. If you train to failure ever session you're not making much progress.
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Proton Soup
#2
Nov29-08, 09:16 PM
P: 1,070
Quote Quote by WarPhalange View Post
Why don't we just skip the formalities and compare penis sizes right now?



Sure, but that just means they pushed themselves too hard. Congrats! You now cannot work that part of your body for a significant amount of time. How strong will that make you?



Holy crap you're right! I'll go try and deadlift 700lbs so I can tear my hamstrings and dislocate a disk in my spine. That will make me stronger, right????


If you get injured in training, you are doing it wrong or there was an accident. Period. Not to mention, muscle doesn't even regenerate fast enough for it to make sense to go balls to the wall every single time. If you train to failure ever session you're not making much progress.
you really just don't know what you're talking about. sure, if you never strain yourself, you're less likely to get injured. but people get injuries in different sports all the time, even when they're not pushing themselves to the limit.

if your sport happens to be powerlifting, the only way you're going to make progress is by adding weight to the bar over time. you may deload for a time, but before you get too detrained, you go right back to heavy loading. it's called progressive overload.

for what it's worth, i really don't care how much you lift. i don't even think you do.
WarPhalange
#3
Nov29-08, 09:42 PM
P: 343
Quote Quote by Proton Soup View Post
you really just don't know what you're talking about. sure, if you never strain yourself, you're less likely to get injured. but people get injuries in different sports all the time, even when they're not pushing themselves to the limit.
Yes, those fall under the category of "accident". Nobody intends to go on the basketball court so they can get their arm broken.

if your sport happens to be powerlifting, the only way you're going to make progress is by adding weight to the bar over time.
Yup. Our disagreement comes down to how often you add that weight and what your offset is.

Funny thing is that I haven't been able to find a single source that says power lifters should train to failure all the time and work out with a significant risk of injury, so they can improve.

Yeah yeah, it's only the internet. I bet all the real power lifters simply have fingers so large that they can't type on a keyboard so they just stay off the internet, right?

you may deload for a time, but before you get too detrained, you go right back to heavy loading. it's called progressive overload.
Them be some fancy words. Where did you get edjumacated like that?

for what it's worth, i really don't care how much you lift. i don't even think you do.
And I don't believe you have any idea what you are talking about. Does that make us even?

Proton Soup
#4
Nov29-08, 10:06 PM
P: 1,070
Weight lifting

Quote Quote by WarPhalange View Post
Yes, those fall under the category of "accident". Nobody intends to go on the basketball court so they can get their arm broken.

Yup. Our disagreement comes down to how often you add that weight and what your offset is.
what do you mean by offset?

Funny thing is that I haven't been able to find a single source that says power lifters should train to failure all the time and work out with a significant risk of injury, so they can improve.
i never said anything about training to failure all the time. i even mentioned deloading, which you seem to brush off as a fancy concept.

Yeah yeah, it's only the internet. I bet all the real power lifters simply have fingers so large that they can't type on a keyboard so they just stay off the internet, right?

Them be some fancy words. Where did you get edjumacated like that?

And I don't believe you have any idea what you are talking about. Does that make us even?
i'm still waiting. do you have any experience lifting at all?
WarPhalange
#5
Nov29-08, 10:16 PM
P: 343
Quote Quote by Proton Soup View Post
what do you mean by offset?
How much weight you start with when you begin training.

i never said anything about training to failure all the time. i even mentioned deloading, which you seem to brush off as a fancy concept.
Which is completely different than what I am saying. "Deloading" means going back down after you have reached some weight X, right?

Training to failure means training until you cannot complete another rep. You have to do that every now and then, but if you do that every workout, you won't make gains and can possibly hurt yourself.

This is similar to the guy at the gym who goes "I come here to bench press every day! How come I'm not making any gains? :( "

i'm still waiting. do you have any experience lifting at all?
Still waiting for what? Find me a source that says what you are saying (that you should train to your max all the time and injuries are to be proud of) and I'll give you some number, and then you'll say you don't believe me, and then I'll say I don't care, and you'll say I don't really train, and I'll say you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sound about right to you?
Proton Soup
#6
Nov29-08, 10:37 PM
P: 1,070
Quote Quote by WarPhalange View Post
How much weight you start with when you begin training.
that's pretty individual, and about all you can do to choose a beginning weight is test your strength, then work at some percentage of that.

Which is completely different than what I am saying. "Deloading" means going back down after you have reached some weight X, right?
yes, it is backing down. for instance, maybe you would start at a weight and rep-range that is 80-85% of what you're capable of. then you plan over the course of say 3 weeks to progressively increase the weight lifted until you're at 100-105%. this is a plan, of course, you may actually fail at the end of that 3 weeks, but you're still approaching a limit. then on the 4th week you deload to a much lighter weight, say 70%, and maybe even increase reps.

Training to failure means training until you cannot complete another rep. You have to do that every now and then, but if you do that every workout, you won't make gains and can possibly hurt yourself.
that depends. i had a lot more injury when i worked in a low rep range often. but when i switched to a rest-pause scheme that uses a light weight range, but higher reps, i didn't stay injured and started making gains again. and by the way, on that rest-pause scheme, you go to failure every single set, with short rests between sets. the key for me seemed to be that the weight is just heavy enough to promote hypertrophy, yet not so heavy that it causes injury.

This is similar to the guy at the gym who goes "I come here to bench press every day! How come I'm not making any gains? :( "
yeah, every day doesn't allow for recovery. that's a recipe for failure. i found i did well with a frequency of once every 5 days. at most, you shouldn't train one exercise hard more than 3X/week.

Still waiting for what? Find me a source that says what you are saying (that you should train to your max all the time and injuries are to be proud of) and I'll give you some number, and then you'll say you don't believe me, and then I'll say I don't care, and you'll say I don't really train, and I'll say you have no idea what you are talking about.

Sound about right to you?
whatever. why don't you go find a forum where people who train competitively hang out, and do a poll. ask them if they've never been injured. i suppose you could train and never get injured, but i don't think you would be competitive, either.
WarPhalange
#7
Nov29-08, 11:45 PM
P: 343
Quote Quote by Proton Soup View Post
that depends. i had a lot more injury when i worked in a low rep range often. but when i switched to a rest-pause scheme that uses a light weight range, but higher reps, i didn't stay injured and started making gains again. and by the way, on that rest-pause scheme, you go to failure every single set, with short rests between sets. the key for me seemed to be that the weight is just heavy enough to promote hypertrophy, yet not so heavy that it causes injury.
I thought we were talking about strength/power gain and not muscle mass gain?

Yes, lower weight, higher rep is better suited for bodybuilding and will be inherently safer since you're using a smaller weight.


yeah, every day doesn't allow for recovery. that's a recipe for failure. i found i did well with a frequency of once every 5 days. at most, you shouldn't train one exercise hard more than 3X/week.
How often you train depends on how hard you train. Rule of thumb is minimum 48 hours in between workouts of the same muscle group. The harder you train, the more time out you need. But training harder doesn't always give you more gains. If you train only once a week really hard, you're not going to improve as well as if you trained twice or even 3 times a week, but with less intensity.


whatever. why don't you go find a forum where people who train competitively hang out, and do a poll. ask them if they've never been injured. i suppose you could train and never get injured, but i don't think you would be competitive, either.
You're confusing "not wanting to get injured, but it happening anyway" with "training without regard for injury"

You said powerlifters lift sooooo hard that they rip the meat off their bones and that injuries are like a badge of honor for them. That's not the same as saying "People get injured sometimes."

Make up your mind. Nobody wants to get injured and everybody who does wishes they didn't. Nobody walks around with a smile on his face after he tears a muscle. If you are training with a reasonable routine, then you shouldn't get injured unless there is an accident. If you go too high on your weight, then yeah, you're asking for trouble.
binzing
#8
Nov29-08, 11:59 PM
P: 252
Wheres the opening dialogue from? I don't see anyone on here using "noob" other than jokingly.
Ivan Seeking
#9
Nov30-08, 12:05 AM
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This discussion had drifted off-topic and was moved from another thread.
http://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=86471
binzing
#10
Nov30-08, 12:21 AM
P: 252
Ah, I figured as much after reading whats here so far. Don't think its too far off from a banning, I suppose.
Proton Soup
#11
Nov30-08, 01:10 AM
P: 1,070
Quote Quote by WarPhalange View Post
I thought we were talking about strength/power gain and not muscle mass gain?

Yes, lower weight, higher rep is better suited for bodybuilding and will be inherently safer since you're using a smaller weight.
if you want to keep getting stronger, you have to gain muscle mass. you can only go so far with neural gains.

How often you train depends on how hard you train. Rule of thumb is minimum 48 hours in between workouts of the same muscle group. The harder you train, the more time out you need. But training harder doesn't always give you more gains. If you train only once a week really hard, you're not going to improve as well as if you trained twice or even 3 times a week, but with less intensity.
like i said, i found that every 5 days was close to ideal for the intensity i was training at. if i wanted to train 3X/wk i'd have to back down quite a bit. a lot of this is individual and varies by how long you've been training.


You're confusing "not wanting to get injured, but it happening anyway" with "training without regard for injury"
no, i'm not. i've conversed with enough people over time to realize that getting injured is common, even among people that have formal athletic training.

You said powerlifters lift sooooo hard that they rip the meat off their bones and that injuries are like a badge of honor for them. That's not the same as saying "People get injured sometimes."
someone else said it was a badge of honor, i never said that. i'm just saying that it happens more often than you might think. i believe what i did say is that muscle tears are pretty common. maybe that is what you're confused about. not every tear is a complete rupture. usually, they're pretty benign. you see a little bruising and that's it, as i mentioned.

Make up your mind. Nobody wants to get injured and everybody who does wishes they didn't. Nobody walks around with a smile on his face after he tears a muscle. If you are training with a reasonable routine, then you shouldn't get injured unless there is an accident. If you go too high on your weight, then yeah, you're asking for trouble.
i see now that you're confused. it's not even always painful, even if somebody forgets to lock their elbows on a deadlift and pulls the muscle off the bone (a bone-headed mistake, mind you, but it does happen, if somewhat rarely).

besides, you're talking about powerlifting here, which is a competitive sport, and naturally involves lifting weight that is "too high". that is the whole point of powerlifting.
WarPhalange
#12
Nov30-08, 02:07 AM
P: 343
Quote Quote by Proton Soup View Post
if you want to keep getting stronger, you have to gain muscle mass. you can only go so far with neural gains.
Mass doesn't always = strength. Most of those power lifters also have a nice layer of fat around them, simply because they'd rather make sure to get enough calories and protein than to count calories or risk being undernourished.

Look at Lamar Grant, he was 130 something and dead lifted 661lbs. I couldn't find how tall he was at the time, but 130 is still pretty skinny.

[img]http://www.usaplnationals.com/2003MoState/images/lewisSQ_large.jpg/img]

You can't tell me that's all muscle.

like i said, i found that every 5 days was close to ideal for the intensity i was training at. if i wanted to train 3X/wk i'd have to back down quite a bit. a lot of this is individual and varies by how long you've been training.
No argument there.

no, i'm not. i've conversed with enough people over time to realize that getting injured is common, even among people that have formal athletic training.
Yes, but you made it sound like they were training so hard because they didn't care about getting injured, when in reality the injuries happen as accidents.

A bonehead move is to put on 50lbs more than you did last time because you think you're not getting gains fast enough.

But if you're training smart, the risk of injury goes down substantially. And as far as I know, everybody with half a brain tries to avoid injuries.


someone else said it was a badge of honor, i never said that.
Someone else is very stupid, then. Sorry that I attributed it to you.

i'm just saying that it happens more often than you might think. i believe what i did say is that muscle tears are pretty common. maybe that is what you're confused about. not every tear is a complete rupture. usually, they're pretty benign. you see a little bruising and that's it, as i mentioned.
I know it can happen often. You're lifting heavy objects. I'm just saying nobody is going to substantially increase their risk of getting injured by going as hard as they can every single time.



i see now that you're confused. it's not even always painful, even if somebody forgets to lock their elbows on a deadlift and pulls the muscle off the bone (a bone-headed mistake, mind you, but it does happen, if somewhat rarely).
Oh yeah. Forgetting to relax your biceps on a dead lift is always fun.

besides, you're talking about powerlifting here, which is a competitive sport, and naturally involves lifting weight that is "too high". that is the whole point of powerlifting.
You compete balls to the wall, sure, but you train just hard enough that you avoid injury. Look at all these MMA fighters. They get injured all the time, since that's the point of the sport. But if you see them train, they use pads, they don't go 100%, and they make sure not to exceed their limits, because an injury can really set you back.
Proton Soup
#13
Nov30-08, 02:58 AM
P: 1,070
Quote Quote by WarPhalange View Post
Mass doesn't always = strength. Most of those power lifters also have a nice layer of fat around them, simply because they'd rather make sure to get enough calories and protein than to count calories or risk being undernourished.
no, it doesn't always equal strength, but it is the potential for strength. that's why i mentioned CNS gains. at some point, you're going to hit your strength limit for a set amount of muscle mass and will have to add more mass to gain strength.

Look at Lamar Grant, he was 130 something and dead lifted 661lbs. I couldn't find how tall he was at the time, but 130 is still pretty skinny.
Lamar also has maybe the longest arms of any deadlifter, ever. a deadlift for him is like a rack lift for normal people. he is strong, but he also was gifted with mechanical leverages that most people do not have.



You can't tell me that's all muscle.
nope, but i can tell you that the fat guys carry more muscle than the skinny guys. that's one of the reasons they eat so much. the real trick is trying to hold onto that muscle as you diet down. the p-ratio will kill your efforts. but, if you take a guy who's been a big fat powerlifter for a few years and diet him down properly, you'll see that he actually looks like a bodybuilder under all that blubber.

No argument there.



Yes, but you made it sound like they were training so hard because they didn't care about getting injured, when in reality the injuries happen as accidents.
i think we may just have to disagree here. it's kind of hard to know where your limits are until you've crossed them.

A bonehead move is to put on 50lbs more than you did last time because you think you're not getting gains fast enough.
yeah, depending on what you're doing, that could be pretty foolish.

But if you're training smart, the risk of injury goes down substantially. And as far as I know, everybody with half a brain tries to avoid injuries.
no argument there.

Someone else is very stupid, then. Sorry that I attributed it to you.

I know it can happen often. You're lifting heavy objects. I'm just saying nobody is going to substantially increase their risk of getting injured by going as hard as they can every single time.

Oh yeah. Forgetting to relax your biceps on a dead lift is always fun.
better yet, just concentrate on activating your triceps, especially if you're using a mixed grip. i don't think i've ever tried to row it up with double overhand.

You compete balls to the wall, sure, but you train just hard enough that you avoid injury. Look at all these MMA fighters. They get injured all the time, since that's the point of the sport. But if you see them train, they use pads, they don't go 100%, and they make sure not to exceed their limits, because an injury can really set you back.
MMA is not a 100% strength sport, so they don't need to go 100% on weights. skill and conditioning are more important.
WarPhalange
#14
Nov30-08, 03:21 AM
P: 343
I meant 100% in the ring when they are practicing. They still don't pound on each other.

My deadlift grip is/was kind of weird. At first I could only do it double overhand. Nothing else felt right. I had to take a break for a while, and when I came back to it, only mixed grip felt right and it's been like that ever since. I don't get why.
gravenewworld
#15
Nov30-08, 07:06 AM
P: 1,408
When I dead lift how come I don't feel any burn in my hammys? I try to do them as correct as possible, but my hamstrings never feel the work out. What am I doing wrong? The next day my lower back is never sore, so I know I am not putting stress on my lower back. I always try to maintain a neutral spine.
Hootenanny
#16
Nov30-08, 07:14 AM
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Quote Quote by gravenewworld View Post
When I dead lift how come I don't feel any burn in my hammys? I try to do them as correct as possible, but my hamstrings never feel the work out. What am I doing wrong? The next day my lower back is never sore, so I know I am not putting stress on my lower back. I always try to maintain a neutral spine.
Have you tried Romanian Dead-lifts? You won't need as much weight as you would for standard dead-lifts and you should feel it more in your hamstrings. However, you need to be careful that you don't try to go outside your range and keep strict form.
gravenewworld
#17
Nov30-08, 07:24 AM
P: 1,408
Quote Quote by Hootenanny View Post
Have you tried Romanian Dead-lifts? You won't need as much weight as you would for standard dead-lifts and you should feel it more in your hamstrings. However, you need to be careful that you don't try to go outside your range and keep strict form.
How do you do those?
Hootenanny
#18
Nov30-08, 07:37 AM
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Quote Quote by gravenewworld View Post
How do you do those?
Click here and scroll down to the section "How To Perform The RDL (Romanian Deadlift)".


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