Solving the Riddle of Sorts: Who Signed the Peace Agreement First?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a thought experiment related to special relativity (SR) involving two pairs of leaders from different countries attempting to sign a peace agreement simultaneously. The scenario explores the implications of simultaneity and reference frames in the context of light travel time and observers' perceptions of events.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that everyone is correct in their own frame of reference regarding the signing of the peace agreement, citing special relativity as the basis for this view.
  • Others argue that no one is correct, asserting that the nature of the event cannot be reconciled across different frames of reference.
  • One participant emphasizes that special relativity validates all frames of reference as equally valid, challenging the notion that anyone could be wrong.
  • Another participant contends that if everyone were incorrect, it would undermine the purpose of scientific observation and the applicability of special relativity.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the correctness of perspectives on the simultaneity of the signing event, with some asserting that all views are valid while others maintain that none are correct. The discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexities of simultaneity in special relativity and the subjective nature of observations based on different reference frames. There are unresolved implications of how light travel time affects perceptions of event timing.

Tom McCurdy
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There is fierce fighting between two countries, that we will be referred to as Country Bob, and Country Joe. To solve the problem the UN gets the leaders of Bob and Joe decide to sign a peace agreement to end the violence, the problem is that neither leader wishes to sign it first. To solve the problem they put the two leaders in a room across from each other equal distant to a light source at a long table. They decided that the peace agreement signature will occur when the light reaches each leader. Since light travels at the same velocity it reaches the leaders at the same time, and the agreement is signed and both countries are happy as there is peace between the two countries.

Later two new countries, Left and Right are fighting. The US is trying to get a peace agreement signed to end the fighting, however they have the same problem as the first two countries, with the leaders of both countries having to sign the treaty at the same time. To solve the problem the leaders meet on a train, and again the same thing is set up. The two leaders sit on opposite ends of a table on the train, one facing the front of the train (F-Leader), the other facing the back of train(B-Leader). They set up the light in the middle and turn it on, and they both sign it when the light hits them. They two leaders and especially the US (finally doing something successful in foreign relations in the Bush admin) are quite pleased until they find out the fighting started again. It turns out to the observers outside of the train, they "saw" the F-leader sign the document just before the b-leader because the light had to travel a smaller distance even though it is at the same speed. However the people on the train maintain that the documents were signed at the exact same time.

Who is correct?
Why?

This is meant to be a simple excerise to help explain SR, it was adapted from Brian Greene's The Elegant Universe.
 
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Tom McCurdy said:
Who is correct?
Why?
Everyone is correct. Why? SR.

Nice riddle - variation of Einstein's thought experiment.
 
I disagree. No-one is correct. Why? SR.

:smile:
 
OneEye said:
I disagree. No-one is correct. Why? SR.

:smile:
Fair enough.
 
I disagree with that statement. Special relativity says that all frames of reference of equally valid, not equally invalid. Everyone is correct about how they view the nature of an event in their own frame of reference. If everyone was incorrect it would mean that observations would be pointless since we can never observe the true nature of reality. If that was the case, we would know nothing about the Universe and special relativity would be useless as it doesn't apply to Universe as it is. Saying that everyone is wrong complete nullifies science. It's much more productive to say everyone is right in their own specific reference frame.
 

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