Key to figuring out gravity and all of its secrets

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the technology of lifters, which some participants speculate may hold keys to understanding gravity. The conversation explores various aspects of lifters, including their operation, potential applications, and the scientific principles behind them, while also addressing skepticism and the state of research in this area.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses surprise at the lack of awareness about lifters in aerospace engineering and physics circles, suggesting they could be crucial for understanding gravity.
  • Another participant counters that lifters are not related to anti-gravity, mentioning ionizing air as a possible explanation for their operation.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between ionizing air and ion propulsion, with one participant suggesting that the acceleration of ions contributes to the lift generated by lifters.
  • A participant notes that lifters have been tested in a vacuum, where they reportedly did not function, indicating that air is necessary for their operation.
  • Concerns are raised about the thrust-to-weight ratio of lifters, with questions about whether they can achieve ratios greater than unity, depending on how power supply is factored in.
  • Another participant mentions that while ionized wind explains much of the lift, experimental values exceed theoretical predictions, suggesting there may be unexplained phenomena at play.
  • There is a reference to marketing language surrounding the concept of "gravity drive," indicating skepticism about the terminology used in promoting lifters.
  • A participant shares a link to aggregated information about lifters, suggesting a resource for further exploration.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a mix of curiosity and skepticism regarding lifters. While some propose theories about their operation and potential, others challenge the validity of these claims and highlight the lack of empirical support. No consensus is reached on the effectiveness or implications of lifters.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the presence of many variables in experiments with lifters, which complicates the interpretation of results. There are also references to the historical context of lifters in online discussions, indicating a long-standing interest in the topic.

griffin
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I was reviewing some of the old posts in the Ion propultion thread and ran across the Lifters referance. I checked it out, and I was dumb-founded. I can only say that I have been studying Aerospace engineering and some fields of physics for nearly 3 years and in none of my travles or research had I heard even a wisper about it. And worse yet, most of my classmates and even professors knew nothing of it. :surprise:

anyway, what are your opinions on the current state of that technology, and where it may be helping us in the future.

I will start this off by saying that If utalized correctly it may be the key to figuring out gravity and all of its secrets.

for thoughs of you who haven't seen or heard anything about lifters just google "antigravity" and it will lead you in.
 
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griffin said:
I will start this off by saying that If utalized correctly it may be the key to figuring out gravity and all of its secrets.
No. The part they won't tell you on an anti-gravity site is that lifters have nothing to do with anti-gravity. I can't remember the explanation (ionizing air?) but there is another thread on it floating around here somewhere.
 
"ionizing air" sounds very much as "ion propulsion" to me.
 
arivero said:
"ionizing air" sounds very much as "ion propulsion" to me.

Does "acceleration due to gravity" sound like "gravity drive" to you?

It is the most likely explanation. Ions are created around the round wire, and around the sharp edge of the foil. Those created around the foil experience larger fields, and therefore larger acceleration.

The ions around the wire experience a slight net-acceleration upward. The ions around the foil experience a strong net-acceleration downward. There is a net downward acceleration of ionized air, resulting in a net upward force on the lifter.

It sounds reasonable, but it hasn't been well tested. Nobody is paying for this work you see, so a lot of scientists, engineers and entusiasts try to figure it out on a low budget.

My office mate wanted me to stick one in my evaporator (a high vacuum chamber with high voltage feed throughs). No air would mean no accelerating ions. Broken evaporator would mean no job for Njorl! No way!

There are other attempts at explanations, one involves the Earth's magnetic field, but the resulting forces are way too small by any calculations I've seen.

Njorl

PS - I've actually been waiting for lifters to show up here. I am amazed at how long it took.
 
I read an article that NASA did try an experiment with a lifter in a vacuum, and, lo and behold, once the vacuum was sufficient the lifter would not fly.

(As a side note, it had to be a very good vacuum to keep the lifter from flying)
 
I've barely given these things any consideration (as I do with anything which sounds like magi-tech).

Do they actually have versions with T/W ratios greater than unity?
 
enigma said:
I've barely given these things any consideration (as I do with anything which sounds like magi-tech).

Do they actually have versions with T/W ratios greater than unity?

I suppose that depends on whether you consider the power supply to be part of the W. This type of technology is similar to the ion drive on Deep Space I. In general, ion drives enjoy very high specific impulse (delta-v) but have lousy thrust.
 
russ_watters said:
I can't remember the explanation (ionizing air?) but there is another thread on it floating around here somewhere.

Acctually you are very close. The word is Ionized wind. And this is a very good explanation for most of the lift generated by lifters, but the equations that use Ionized wind as the exclusive source of thrust, give one number for thrust, and the actual experimental value is a little bit higher. I read an article once about a test in a vacuum chamber once, and all the people would say was that there were still too many variables to assume that there was somthing actually going on. I assume that this meant something was observed (Although the site didn't explicitly say what if anything had happened). So it is still quite possible that something is lying just beneath the surface.
 
Njorl said:
Does "acceleration due to gravity" sound like "gravity drive" to you?

Hmm we are touching a deep marketing trick here.

PS - I've actually been waiting for lifters to show up here. I am amazed at how long it took.
I subscribed early to the lifters yahoogroups, and by the age they were maturing -internetwise- physicsforums was very young, if barely existent. Still you could find some reference in the archive of old postings.
 

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