Can Magnetic Coils Create Movement in Space Without Expelling Mass?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of using magnetic coils within closed pipes to create movement in space without expelling mass. Participants explore the feasibility of this idea, considering the mechanics of motion, energy conservation, and the implications of rotating systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a system where two pipes with magnetic coils propel a ball back and forth, suggesting this could create movement without expelling mass.
  • Another participant questions the assumptions of friction and external energy sources, noting that energy would be converted into heat and that friction would affect the system's efficiency.
  • A participant emphasizes that the system would not achieve high speeds due to energy losses and the nature of the closed system.
  • Concerns are raised about the rotation of the device, particularly regarding the center of gravity and how it affects movement, with one participant suggesting that the device would return to its original position due to the offset mass.
  • Another participant clarifies that rotating the device 180 degrees would not result in a net movement, as the forces would cancel out.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the physics involved and suggest that more knowledgeable individuals should evaluate the concept.
  • One participant mentions the challenge of conveying the idea clearly and the potential need for diagrams to illustrate the concept better.
  • There is a discussion about the relationship between angular and linear movement, with a claim that they cannot be converted into one another.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility of the proposed system, with some supporting the idea while others raise concerns about its mechanics and energy conservation. The discussion remains unresolved, with no consensus on the validity of the concept.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their understanding of the physics involved, and there are references to assumptions about energy losses and the effects of friction that are not fully explored.

t0yland
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This is probably off the wall but I would like some other peoples opinions none the less.

Imagine two 10kg, 1 meter long pipes that are closed off at each end. At the ends are magnet coils to propel and object back and forth. Inside the pipes there is a magnet disk/ball/whatever that is 1kg.

Both of these pipes are situated on a platform in order to swing the pipes around like a centrifuge. Each pipe will swing the opposite way in order to cancel out any other movement.

Both pipes are parallel to each other, with the ball in each of them, at the same end. The magnetic coils are now activated to send the ball flying to the other end at 10m/s. When the ball hits the other end the pipes are the swung around in opposite directions. Rinse and repeat.

It seems to me such a device, in space, would create movement without expelling anything. Essentially you create a reaction which gets the pipes moving at 1m/s opposite of the ball. When the ball hits the other side the whole apparatus would stop. However it would have moved.

Perhaps I’m crazy but please prove it wrong? :smile:
 
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first point is are we too assume no frictional forces take place?
second point is we a dealing with a closed system were no external energy sources are affecting this so all the energy would be either kinetic or potetial.
some of this energy would be converted into heat .
 
jamie said:
first point is are we too assume no frictional forces take place?
second point is we a dealing with a closed system were no external energy sources are affecting this so all the energy would be either kinetic or potetial.
some of this energy would be converted into heat .

Of course there would be friction and some energy would be lost to this. It is electically powered though.

The whole point is its a system that would propel a mass in space without a reaction. It does this by delaying the reaction by a fraction of a second. Granted you never really could get up to a high speed with such device.
 
the problem is in your "rotation". The object is heavier on one end, to symetrically rotate it in space creating "no movement' you would have to rotate around the center of gravity which is offset. this will bring your device full swing back to its original location.

was good thinking though, i approve
 
terrabyte said:
the problem is in your "rotation". The object is heavier on one end, to symetrically rotate it in space creating "no movement' you would have to rotate around the center of gravity which is offset. this will bring your device full swing back to its original location.

was good thinking though, i approve

Yes it is heavier in one end for 90 degrees. After that the weight would be on the other side and move it back. If you spin an object 180 degrees you will be at your starting location.
 
i think you mean 360 degrees
 
Yes if your talking only using one object.
We are using two pipes here though. Each pipe at this instant would have the 1kg ball on one side. The pipes would be parallel to each other and then swung 1 clockwise and the other counterclockwise. All the centripetal forces would be canceled out when they stop.

Its kind of hard to describe this without showing a diagram. Sorry if its vague.
 
as far as equilibrium goes, rotating an offset mass in space exerts a force on the axis of rotation proportionate to the amount of the offset

rotating your device 180 degrees with the mass offset (rotation about the center axis <.5 meter mark>) will create the force to push the device back to where it started.

rotating the device about the center of gravity or center of mass would nullify this force being exerted, but by virtue of having a longer end of pipe on one side, you're going to end up at square 1 anyways
 
this is my analysis using my admittedly limited knowledge of physics

we need to get some of the physics Big-heads in here for a proper appraisal, really. I am not that confident in my answers

or we can build one and take to space

TO SPACE!
 
  • #10
I don't think the whole idea is properlly being conveyed. How do I post a diagram? :rolleyes:

Yes, in usual systems the whole device would be back to square one. However in this idea the math says it won't :)

Edit:

Oh btw, supposable angular and linear movement are reserved to each other. One can not change angular movement to linear and visa versa. So technically rotating a mass 'shouldnt' move the system at all.
 
Last edited:
  • #11
I don't think the whole idea is properlly being conveyed. How do I post a diagram?

you GOT me on that one... ::rolleyes::
 

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