Register to reply 
Classifying SUGRAs 
Share this thread: 
#1
Jan1510, 12:18 PM

Sci Advisor
P: 5,364

I already tried this some month ago:
Is there a list (paper, website, ...) of SUGRA theories containing the following information:  able to reproduce the standard model (particle content = gauge fields, fermion generations, chiral structure, higgs, ...)  finiteness (I think there are no rigorous proofs but ongoing research programs)  lowenergy limit of some string theory 


#2
Jan1510, 03:07 PM

PF Gold
P: 2,892

yes and no. Most modern textbooks on string theory include an appendix where the higher dimensional theories are listed, related to its string limit. No mention is done about compactifications to build the standard model, and reviews in that sense are limited to one kind of approach, usually some variant of a Dbrane scenario.
Paraphrasing Verlinde, I'd say that there is an entropic force acting against the formulation of an unique theory. 


#3
Jan1710, 02:16 PM

Sci Advisor
P: 5,364

I am not so much intersted in 11D SUGRA but in 4D SUGRA w/o strings



#4
Jan1710, 02:48 PM

PF Gold
P: 2,892

Classifying SUGRAs
Most of the books I am looking now are on 11D KK, and then they refer to 4D sugra as the result of "dimensional reduction" from 11D SUGRA. I guess the trick is to start reading Cremmer Julia Scherk, then download its references, then look for some review citing both CJS and some fundamental reference.
In textbooks, the only one I know to avoid strings is Weinberg vol III. 


#5
Jan1710, 04:59 PM

Sci Advisor
P: 5,364

I will try ...



#6
Jan1710, 06:14 PM

Sci Advisor
P: 1,677

In the old days if you were interested in phenomenology where gravity was present, you studied N=1 4d Sugra period! Thats the only theory that at face value, has any hope of being applicable to the real world. Higher dimensions are not observed, and extended susy possess unrealistic low energy spectrums.
Then they figured out dimensional reduction, other various stringy breaking and compactification schemes, dualities and other tricks that enlarged the scope of possibly realistic effective field theories. Of course they typically (but not always) limit in some way to mSugra at lower energies + maybe a few relics. I do not know of a simple way to classify the models, other than to label them by the parent scheme (heterotic compactifications vs brane vs Ftheory etc etc). 


#7
Jan1810, 12:12 AM

Sci Advisor
P: 5,364

Thanks a lot! So its N=1 in 4D, which should reduce to N=1 SUSY / MSSM, I guess.



#8
Jan1810, 03:02 AM

PF Gold
P: 2,892

Yes but the whole point of reduction is to produce a particle spectrum via the breaking of the N>1 supersymmetries, so for a classification it is reasonable to start from N=8 in 4D, or from N=1 in 11D. Take care with the notation, they changed it from time to time.
I'd add, it is vital to be near a university library. Some material you can download from KEK+Spires, but not all. And to start, the appendix of some book, Weinberg or similar, is useful. 


#9
Jan2010, 12:20 AM

Sci Advisor
P: 5,364




#10
Jan2010, 03:34 AM

PF Gold
P: 2,892




#11
Jan2110, 06:41 PM

Sci Advisor
P: 888

Let G be some (finitedimensional) Lie group. In order to find the lowestdimensional manifold which can have G as a symmetry, we need to construct the coset space G/H, where H is a maximal (not necessarily the largest) subgroup of G.
dim(G/H) = dim(G)  dim(H) Examples: G = the Poicare' group P(1,3), H = the Lorentz group SL(2,C) P(1,3)/SL(2,C) = [itex]M^{4}[/itex] is the (Poincaresymmetric) 4dimensional Minkowski spacetime. G = SU(2) , H = U(1) SU(2)/U(1) = [itex]S^{2}[/itex] is the (SU(2)symmetric) 2dimensional sphere. G = SU(3), H = SU(2) X U(1) SU(3)/SU(2)XU(1) = [itex]CP^{2}[/itex] is the (SU(3)symmetric) 4dimensional (complex) projective space. We also note that the circle [itex]S^{1}[/itex] is the U(1)symmetric 1dimensional space. Therefore, the manifold [itex]C^{7} = CP^{2}\times S^{2} \times S^{1}[/itex] has 4+2+1=7 dimensions, and it has SU(3)XSU(2)XU(1) symmetry. Clearly [itex]M^{4}\times C^{7}[/itex] is 11dimensional space with Poincare' and SU(3)XSU(2)XU(1) symmetries. Thus, if you want to constract a (KK) theory in which su(3)xsu(2)xu(1) gauge fields arise as components of the metric tensor in more than 4 (noncompact) spacetime dimensions, you must have at least 7 extra dimensions, i.e., D = 11 is the minimum number with which you can obtain SU(3)XSU(2)XU(1) gauge fields by KaluzaKlein method. We have good reasons to believe that consistent field theory with gravity coupled to massless particles of spin > 2 does not exist. Since, D>11 supergravity contains such massless, spin>2 particles, we "conclude" that 11 dimensions is the maximum for consistent supergravity. It is remarkable coincidence that D=11, which is the minimum number required by KK procedure, is the maximum number required by consistent supergravity. 


#12
Jan2210, 01:08 AM

Sci Advisor
P: 5,364

Thanks for this summary; Spin>2 in D>11 was clear to me, but the KK consideration for D>10 is new. So the idea is basically to look for a manifold which could produce the SM via KK. This explains, why D=11 SUGRA is somehow unique, GIVEN the SM.



#13
Jan2210, 01:10 AM

Sci Advisor
P: 1,677

Indeed this was one of the reasons people in the early 80s thought that D=11 SUGRA was a TOE. Then it turned out that it was nonrenormalizable (a conclusion that has been revisited recently in N=8, d=4 for apparently mysterious reasons see the modern Twistor program).
Can it regain its place as a potential fundamental TOE? Probably not, b/c even if it is perturbatively finite, we now know it has extended objects in its nonperturbative spectrum, and begs the question for a stringy completion. 


#14
Jan2210, 01:31 AM

Sci Advisor
P: 5,364

Why should I care about string / Mtheory at all if I am able to quantize the theory perturbatively? I agree that one has to look for a nonperturbative quantization, but that does not automatically imply that this must be a stringlike approach. As far as I know there is no consistent definition of the perturbation series in string theory beyond two (three?) loops. So we do not even know whether string / Mtheory is the completion of SUGRA in this regime. On the other hand as far as I know the "renormalization" or "finiteness" of SUGRA which is proposed today uses onshell amplitudes. So again it is unclear how this can be related to string / Mtheory. That's basically the reason why I think that it's interesting to study SUGRA w/o any reference to string / Mtheory. Now I understand the mathematical reason why N=8, D=11 is so interesting. I guess the next step is to understand the KK compactification and realistic SUSY breaking down to the MSSM / SM. Besides the fact that U(1)*SU(2)*SU(3) should be the result, are there any other ideas why one should compactify this theory in a certain why? 


#15
Jan2210, 03:08 AM

PF Gold
P: 2,892

The only fermion in the basic representation of SUGRA in 11D is a 3/2 particle with 128 degrees of freedom. Its bosonic partners are the graviton, which has 44 degrees of freedom, and them a (antisymmetric, iirc) 3form, A_{\MNR} with 84 degrees degrees of freedom. Now this A_{\MNR}, having three indexes, generates a force tensor with four indexes, which allows to singularize a four dimensional manifold when solving Einstein equations to get compact+big dimensions. This is called the FreundRubin solution or something so. You need some extra handwaving to explain why it is 4+7 instead of 7+4. Haelfix, I think that this tensor A relates to the extended object you are asking for. It is because of it that you can tell that 11D SUGRA is a limit of Mtheory. My opinion is that the stringy completion provides the flavour. Back in the 80s, the flavour (the number of generations) was searched in the topology of the manifold. So for the dimension. As for why the standard model, where, once you are in seven, it is either that or the sphere. It a sense, the manifold with the standard model is "bigger" than the one of the sphere. 


#16
Jan2210, 03:23 AM

PF Gold
P: 2,892

There were to big problems with 11D KK:
1) It was not able to represent chirality 2) It was not able to produce the standard model quantum numbers (the representations of the group). The second problem was adressed by Bailin and Love who shoved that the correct quantum numbers do appear if you add an infinitesimal 12th dimension, providing the U(1) for BL. (It was not stressed in the original work that it needs to be infinitesimal because BL is not gauged at all, so fully broken. But "casually", the fact of not having a BL "photon" is the point that keep us in eleven dimensions) The first problem is not fully solved, but there is a workable approach, by Salam et al: go go down one dimension and then reintroducing by hand the lost U(1), as a field in a non trivial topological configuration. It works in 6 and 10 dimensions. The process is sort of adhoc because you do not know how the non trivial configuration appears, you add it in dimension 10 (or 6) instead of going to 11. It is reminiscent of (actually, it anticipated) the links between 10 and 11 in strings. 


#17
Jan2210, 04:15 AM

Sci Advisor
P: 1,677

I mangled my previous post, apologies its late. The story as I understand it is:
The maximal supergravity theory in d=4 arises from the dimensional reduction of the D=11 theory (there is only 1 classically), done in the most naive KaluzaKlein way. Alternatively, you can proceed via the compactification of the type IIA or type IIB 10 dimensional theory. Now, it is this maximal theory in d=4 that is conjectured to be finite (and actually d=3 also is), the higher dimension supergravity theories are most assuredly *not*. However, the fact is there are charged BPS Pbrane solutions that exist for these theories, whether you want them too or not. They essentially show up as solitonic objects, and are extended. Now, the story is well understood in string theory, where M theories classical limit is the aforementioned d=11 supergravity. The M2 and M5 branes that exist there, correspond to the pbrane solutions of the supergravity theory exactly in that classical limit. Compactifying these theories on a 7 torus yields (or a 6 torus if you go via the type II route) the 4d limit where the charged black hole solutions persist. The point is, it really begs the question. If you want to consider perturbatively finite maximal sugra, you still have to take into account solutions that are manifestly stringy in nature if you wish to study the nonpertubative sector. There is no obvious way to get string theory d.o.f to decouple from the theory. 


#18
Jan2210, 04:28 AM

PF Gold
P: 2,892




Register to reply 
Related Discussions  
Classifying finite groups  Calculus & Beyond Homework  2  
Classifying a Lie Algebra from some brackets  Linear & Abstract Algebra  0  
Classifying Matter  Biology, Chemistry & Other Homework  3  
Classifying an equation  Precalculus Mathematics Homework  1  
Classifying reaction type  Chemistry  1 