Does Meson Exchange Cease in Neutron Stars at Sub-Femtometer Distances?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of meson exchange in neutron stars at sub-femtometer distances, particularly whether it ceases and is replaced by gluon exchange. Participants explore the implications of this transition on the forces between neutrons and the stability of neutron stars, considering both theoretical frameworks and mathematical formulations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that if neutrons come closer than 10^-15 meters, meson exchange might stop, potentially leading to gluon exchange, which could either attract or repel neutrons.
  • Others argue that gluons carry color charges and their interactions depend on the color algebra, suggesting that they can both attract and repel depending on the circumstances.
  • A participant mentions the concept of quark stars and suggests searching for more information on that topic.
  • Mathematical formulations for classical gravitational pressure and Yukawa pressure are presented, along with criteria for critical mass in neutron stars.
  • Some participants caution that under high density, classical gravitational pressure formulas may need to be replaced by general relativity equivalents, noting a correction factor for neutron stars.
  • There is a discussion about the potential role of dark energy in affecting particle behavior within light cones, with skepticism about its ability to exert sufficient force.
  • Participants reference the Chandresekhar criterion and provide equations related to gravitational pressure and mass limits in the context of neutron stars.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the exact general relativity formula for gravitational pressure and suggests consulting experts in that area.
  • Technical issues with LaTeX formatting are noted, with a request for assistance in reposting LaTeX source code.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of forces at sub-femtometer distances in neutron stars, and the discussion remains unresolved with no consensus on the implications of gluon exchange or the appropriate pressure equations.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on high-density assumptions, unresolved mathematical steps, and the need for clarification on definitions and terms used in the discussion.

kurious
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If neutrons stay intact and get closer together than 10^-15 metres in a neutron star, would the exchange of mesons between neutrons stop and be replaced by the exchange of gluons, and would the gluons cause an attractive or repulsive force between neutrons? A repulsive force could
stop the collapse of the neutron star in place of neutron degeneracy pressure.
 
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As I unserstand it, the quarks would become unconfined and constitute a gas. The thermodynamics of this gas is under study by theoreticians.

Gluons carry two color charges, or rather a color and an anticolor; they will be attractive if the color algebra can be satisfied. But if a quark has the same color, or anticolor as a gluon then they will repel. Like charges still repel. Note the important fact that gluons can attract/repel each other too.
 
Try a search using 'quark star'. You may find that interesting.
 
Pretential Pressure...


A repulsive force could stop the collapse of the neutron star in place of neutron degeneracy pressure.
[/color]


Classical Gravitational Pressure: (negative)
[tex]P_g = \frac{G M_s^2}{4 \pi r_s^4}[/tex]

Classical Yukawa Pressure: (positive)
[tex]P_y = f^2 \frac{e^{- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}}{4 \pi r_s^2 r_1^2}[/tex]

[tex]r_o = 1.5*10^{-15} m[/tex] - nuclear radius
[tex]r_1[/tex] - internuclear radius
[tex]r_s[/tex] - stellar radius
[tex]f[/tex] - nuclear interaction strength (positive)

Orion1 Criterion:
[tex]P_g = P_y[/tex]

[tex]\frac{G M_s^2}{4 \pi r_s^4} = f^2 \frac{e^{- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}}{4 \pi r_s^2 r_1^2}[/tex]

Orion1-Yukawa Critical Mass:
[tex]M_c = f \frac{r_s}{r_1} \sqrt{ \frac{e^{- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}}{G}}[/tex]
[tex]r_1 < r_0[/tex]

Based upon the Orion1 solution, what is the critical mass magnitude of a Kurious Neutron Star?

 
One should be very careful here. Under the high density assumption, the formula for classical graviational pressure may have to be replaced by the GR equivalent. (For a neutron star, I am told that this is a correction of about 10%; it would be higher for more dense objects). One thing is certain: in classical GR, once matter collapses inside its Schwarzschild radius, (or some other radius for more complex - eg rotational - spacetime geometries) no force can prevent the collapse to a singularity no matter how powerful. This is because the world lines of particles must lie within the light cones, and the light cones point towards the singularity.
 
Could the repulsive gravitational effect of dark energy stop the particles from lying within the light cones?
 
Chandresekhar Criterion...

Under the high density assumption, the formula for classical graviational pressure may have to be replaced by the GR equivalent. (For a neutron star, I am told that this is a correction of about 10%; it would be higher for more dense objects). One thing is certain: in classical GR, once matter collapses inside its Schwarzschild radius,...

Orion1-Yukawa Critical Mass:
[tex]M_c = f \frac{r_s}{r_1} \sqrt{ \frac{e^{- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}}{G}}[/tex]

[tex]r_1 < r_0[/tex]

Classical GR Chandresekhar Radius:
[tex]r_{c} = \frac{2GM_c}{c^2}[/tex]

Chandresekhar Criterion:
[tex]r_s <= r_{c}[/tex]

[tex]r_s <= \frac{2GM_c}{c^2}[/tex]

[tex]M_{ch} = \frac{r_c c^2}{2G}[/tex]

Classical Chandresekhar-Yukawa Mass Limit:
[tex]M_c = M_{ch}[/tex]

[tex]\frac{r_c c^2}{2G} = f \frac{r_s}{r_1} \sqrt{ \frac{e^{- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}}{G}}[/tex]

[tex]r_s = r_c[/tex]

[tex]\frac{c^2}{2G} = \frac{f}{r_1} \sqrt{ \frac{e^{- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}}{G}}[/tex]

Chandresekhar-Yukawa nuclear interaction strength Limit:
[tex]f_1 = \frac{r_1c^2}{2} \sqrt{\frac{e^{\frac{r_1}{r_0}}}{G}}[/tex]

[tex]r_1 < r_0[/tex]

Based upon the Orion1 solution, what is the magnitude of the Chandresekhar-Yukawa Limit?

Based upon the Orion1 equations, what are the Standard International (SI) units for [tex]f_1[/tex]?

 
Last edited:
Relative Relation...

Under the high density assumption, the formula for classical graviational pressure may have to be replaced by the GR equivalent. (For a neutron star, I am told that this is a correction of about 10%; it would be higher for more dense objects).

What is the exact GR formula for gravitational pressure?
[/color]
 
Rothiemurchus said:
Could the repulsive gravitational effect of dark energy stop the particles from lying within the light cones?
Not unless it can exert an infinite force :smile:
orion1 said:
What is the exact GR formula for gravitational pressure?
I wish I knew... try the GR forum?
What I can tell you is that when one studies motion in a Scharzschild metric, the post-Newtonian effects are encoded in an additional attractive 1/r^3 term in the potential. Still, I don't think it would be correct to take the derivative of that and throw in an additional 1/r^4 attractive force. It's not conceptually correct in any event (there is no gravitational force or local field energy in GR), and I don't know if it would give a correct answer. I strongly suggest asking one of the local GR experts.
 
  • #10
Gravity Gyruss...


Einstein field equation gravitational potential:
[tex]\nabla^2 \phi = 4 \pi G \left( \rho + \frac{3P}{c^2} \right)[/tex]

General Relativity gravitational pressure:
[tex]P_e = \frac{c^2}{3} \left( \frac{\nabla^2 \phi}{4 \pi G} - \rho \right)[/tex]

Einstein-Yukawa criterion:
[tex]P_e = P_y[/tex]

[tex]\frac{c^2}{3} \left( \frac{\nabla^2 \phi}{4 \pi G} - \rho \right) = f^2 \frac{e^{- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}}{4 \pi r_s^2 r_1^2}[/tex]

Reference:
http://super.colorado.edu/~michaele/Lambda/gr.html

 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • #11
Lame Latex...

Latex Generator Failure.[/color]


Einstein field equation gravitational potential:
[!tex]\nabla^2 \phi = 4 \pi G \left( \rho + \frac{3P}{c^2} \right)[/tex]

General Relativity gravitational pressure:
[!tex]P_e = \frac{c^2}{3} \left( \frac{\nabla^2 \phi}{4 \pi G} - \rho \right)[/tex]

Einstein-Yukawa criterion:
[!tex]P_e = P_y[/tex]

[!tex]\frac{c^2}{3} \left( \frac{\nabla^2 \phi}{4 \pi G} - \rho \right) = f^2 \frac{e^{- \frac{r_1}{r_0}}}{4 \pi r_s^2 r_1^2}[/tex]

Reference:
http://super.colorado.edu/~michaele/Lambda/gr.html
[/color]

Could someone please repost my Latex source code? My Latex Generator has failed. (just remove '!' symbol from [!tex])
 
Last edited by a moderator:

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