Fuel injector surrounded by a coaxial air stream

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the behavior of a fuel injector surrounded by a coaxial air stream, particularly focusing on the mixing and combustion processes at varying Mach numbers. Participants explore the implications of both subsonic and supersonic flows on molecular diffusion and chemical reactions, considering steady and compressible flow conditions.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that at low Mach numbers, molecular diffusion and convection allow for a diffusion flame, with the mixing layer thickness dependent on diffusion mechanisms.
  • Another participant posits that even at high velocities, diffusion mechanisms may still occur due to molecular motion, potentially leading to turbulence that enhances mixing.
  • A different viewpoint emphasizes that at very high Mach numbers, diffusion may be negligible compared to convection, questioning the possibility of chemical reactions without diffusion.
  • One participant mentions the use of Euler equations to describe flow, indicating that diffusion and heat transfer are assumed negligible at high Mach numbers.
  • There is a discussion about whether chemical reactions can occur without diffusion, with one participant arguing that convective processes can facilitate reactions even in the absence of significant diffusion.
  • Another participant acknowledges the challenges of understanding rapid flows and suggests that at Mach 3 or higher, molecular diffusion may be insufficient for transverse mixing.
  • Participants briefly discuss the Scramjet engine, noting its operation in supersonic conditions and the complexities involved in studying such combustion processes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the role of diffusion in high Mach number flows and its impact on combustion. There is no consensus on whether chemical reactions can occur without diffusion, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the specifics of mixing and reaction mechanisms in supersonic conditions.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the topic, particularly regarding the assumptions made in modeling flows at high velocities and the limitations of current understanding of supersonic combustion processes.

Clausius2
Science Advisor
Gold Member
Messages
1,433
Reaction score
7
Maybe you, chemical people could answer my question.

Imagine a fuel injector surrounded by a coaxial air stream. The fuel and air flow are parallel, coaxial and axisymmetric. Both fluids obey ideal gas equation. Let's consider steady and compressible flow, i.e, variations of [tex]\rho[/tex] are important.

At low Mach numbers, the flow velocity is small enough to allow both reactants to be mixed by means of molecular diffusion and convection, resulting in a diffusion flame that can be seen experimentally. I think chemical reaction takes place in the mixing region of both substances. The thickness of this mixing layer I think it will depend on how important is the diffusion mechanism in the transport phenomena.

But my question is about high Mach numbers, in particular M>>1 (supersonic). What would happen?. Will there be enough time for molecular diffusion?. If not, it would be possible to the reaction to take place?.

Moreover, what do you think it will happen if fuel stream is subsonic and air is supersonic?

Any help is welcomed.
 
Chemistry news on Phys.org
Hi spanish collegue,

Interesting. I cannot assure nothing about it.

I would say that yes, even at very high flux velocities in a conctrete direction, there is always a numer of molecules traveling in the transversal direction (in fact in all directions). So there would be allways diffusion mechanisms (i think). If combustion iniciates, it wolud create turbulences enhancing the mixturing process don´t you think so?

Molecular Brownian motions are about 1 km/s, are you talking of flux velotities higher than this? Then perhaps combustion wolud appear only after a long distance from the start of the fluxes. During this distance perhaps some molecules would react, but heat transfer in the transversal direction would be avoided by such a high velocity.
 
Last edited:
Thanks for your reply. I was searching for an answer before doing any numerical simulation. I was pretending to employ Euler equations (without the diffusion terms) in order to describe the flow. Euler equations assume that diffusion and heat transfer are negligible compared with convection phenomena. This is the same thing that saying mixing layer has a negligible thickness compared with the longitudinal variations at #Mach>>1.

I do not agree with you have just said:

"I would say that yes, even at very high flux velocities in a conctrete direction, there is always a numer of molecules traveling in the transversal direction (in fact in all directions). So there would be allways diffusion mechanisms (i think)"

There will be a convection of both reactants in transverse directions. It is enough for enhancing a mixing process (isn't it?). . I've just make up my mind... this is an interesting question: chemical reaction is not possible if diffusion does not exist?. I would say not. The reactive energy term in N-S equations is:

[tex]D_{a}\theta Y_{F}Y_{O2} e^{\frac{T}{1+T/\beta}}[/tex] (non-dimensional).

So that, the chemical reaction will take place in a space region with both fuel and oxidizer are present simultaneusly. This can be reached only by a convective process (do you agree??, I'm not sure of that).

Anyway, I was trying to program some simulation of this flow in Matlab. This is very interesting in supersonic combustion (have you ever heard about Scramjet engine?). If not, see the attached file below. I've found it in the web. It's a supersonic flame simulated with Fluent.
 

Attachments

  • Sin título1.jpg
    Sin título1.jpg
    9.7 KB · Views: 461
Ok, I confess that i´ve never read about such rapid flows. If you´re talking about match 3 or even higher velocities, the flow itself is quicker than the brownian motions of the molecules, that wold mean that almost all the molecules are traveling in the direction of the flow right? then there´s not diffusion to the transverse direction, so you would be right.

I can´t help you.
 
Clausius2 said:
(have you ever heard about Scramjet engine?)

No, how does it work?
 
Ok. It doesn't matter. I really didn't hope anyone to read this thread, because it's a bit complex to solve. Anyway, thanks again for trying something.

The Scramjet engine is a supersonic engine. It breaths the air directly of a supersonic atmosphere. Thus, air into combustion chamber runs supersonically, also in the combustion process. But knowing this process is a very hard task due to flame unstabilities. By the way, NASA's sciencist are almost able now to build such engine at large scale. Some people say the next decade they'll get rid of the space shuttle and use this hypersonic spacecraft .
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
11K
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
Replies
12
Views
6K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
17K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
5K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
Replies
14
Views
5K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
6K