Observing changes the outcome how can we observe?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of the observer effect in physics, particularly in the context of whether observations can be made without altering the outcomes. Participants explore the philosophical and theoretical ramifications of this concept, touching on its significance in both quantum mechanics and broader cosmological understanding.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that the observer is inherently part of any observable event, questioning the validity of many established observations.
  • Others argue that while the observer effect is acknowledged, its impact is typically minimal and primarily relevant at the quantum level, suggesting that the last 80 years of physics have accounted for this.
  • One participant emphasizes the limitations of human perception, suggesting that our understanding of the universe is inherently flawed due to the imperfect nature of our observational tools.
  • Another viewpoint posits that the universe functioned without observers for a significant period, implying that the observer effect may be more temporal than fundamental.
  • A later reply challenges the certainty of cosmological understanding, suggesting that current theories are based on observational interpretations that may not be as definitive as previously thought.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the significance and implications of the observer effect, with no consensus reached on whether observations fundamentally alter outcomes or the extent of their impact.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the dependence on interpretations of quantum mechanics and the philosophical implications of observational limitations, suggesting that the discussion is influenced by varying perspectives on the nature of reality and observation.

Teo1
[SOLVED] Observing changes the outcome.. how can we observe?

Since it is now known that the observer is part of ANY observable event, don't we need to redo oh so many so called factual observations?

Is it even possible to observe something without the observer changing the outcome?
 
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Teo1 said:
Since it is now known that the observer is part of ANY observable event, don't we need to redo oh so many so called factual observations?

No.

Is it even possible to observe something without the observer changing the outcome?

No. Since we understand this, and have for about 80 years, this had been taken into consideration. In fact the last 80 of physics have been filled with discussions and experiments designed to test and understand this fact.

It is important to realize that the effects of observing are very, very small, and are typically only significant at the quantum level. We are usually talking about the effects photons on other subatomic particles. There are a couple of schools of thought resutling from Quantum Mechanics that hint at deeper, macroscopic effects, that is effects for large objects, but this stuff is still highly theoretical and but one or two interpretations that compete with about a dozen other theories.
 
Last edited:
It is true that no observation of any kind can be made with any amount of accuracy, but for a more important reason than the effets of that observation.

We forget sometimes that we view the world with an imperfect tool, and will never even hope to fully comprehend anything we observe. Pidgeons can see geometrical patterns in light, and dolphins can change the frequency of their communications. Face it, we are not all knowing, and can never hope to be.
 
The universe evolved just fine without any observers [er, us in particular] for a very long time. The universe has also been kind enough to let us watch the video of how it all happened. The fact it is behaving in exactly the same way now as it did long before we even existed, suggests the observer effect is temporal, at best.
 
Chronos said:
The universe evolved just fine without any observers [er, us in particular] for a very long time. The universe has also been kind enough to let us watch the video of how it all happened. The fact it is behaving in exactly the same way now as it did long before we even existed, suggests the observer effect is temporal, at best.

How do you know all this? Our understanding of cosmology is based on our present day quantum theories, which are radiacally observational (at least in the most common interpretation). AFAIK the stupid creationist idea that the universe was created yesterday with all its properties, like CMB, and the records of all the scientific experiments all up to date to fool us, is logically undefeatable. Not that I'm proposing it, just suggesting that everything isn't as cut and dried as 19th century scientists believed.
 

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