How can we study the composition of the Sun and Jupiter without direct samples?

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    Helium Jupiter Sun
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the origins of helium in the atmospheres of the Sun and Jupiter, as well as the challenges associated with studying these celestial bodies without direct sampling. Participants explore the production of helium through various processes, including the Big Bang and stellar fusion, while also addressing observational limitations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that helium in the Sun and Jupiter's atmospheres is primarily a result of primordial formation during the Big Bang.
  • Others argue that while the Big Bang produced most of the helium, stars also contribute to helium through nuclear fusion processes in their cores.
  • A participant notes that the observational challenges in studying the Sun and Jupiter mean that direct sampling is not possible, and estimates of their compositions rely on modeling and observational techniques.
  • It is mentioned that the Galileo mission provided some direct measurements of Jupiter's atmosphere, but caution is advised in interpreting these results.
  • Some participants express a need for more information to clarify the relationship between helium production in the Sun and Jupiter.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the role of the Big Bang in producing helium, but there is uncertainty regarding the specific contributions of stellar processes and the applicability of these explanations to both the Sun and Jupiter. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the extent to which the helium origins are the same for both celestial bodies.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in direct observational methods and the reliance on modeling and indirect measurements to infer the elemental composition of the Sun and Jupiter.

S. Dilly
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Stuck again with this "not so informational" astronomy book, and we need help with a question.

What produced the helium in the Suns atmosphere, Jupiters atmosphere, and the suns core?

:cry:


can anyone help us?
 
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The planetary gases originally had helium; it's the 2nd most abundant gas in our universe.
 
The big bang produced most of the helium that exists today. 75% of the mass created in the big bang was hydrogen, and the rest was almost all helium. Stars do fuse hydrogen to helium in their cores however, so some of the helium in the Sun's core is a fusion product, while some of it is primordial.

- Warren
 
Thank you both, We read somewhere it was because of the bigbang, we just needed more information to go off of to make a correct answer. I appreciate both of you takin time out to help us.

Thanks again :D
 
just to add to the good responses...

The Big Bang created lot of subatomic particles (the building blocks of atoms). 300,000 years later when the universe cooled enough, those building blocks formed the smallest atoms (as you would expect)...hydrogen and helium.
 
these answers are for "the sun".. are they the same for jupiter??
 
A_I_ said:
these answers are for "the sun".. are they the same for jupiter??
In a word, yes.

The observational challenges are huge - we can't take direct samples of the inside of the Sun, nor Jupiter; in both cases we can only 'see' (in the optical, UV, IR, radio, etc) the 'surface' of the objects. Of course, we have samples of the solar wind (and the recently crashed Genesis satellite would have given us much more data on this!), and some info on the near Jovian environment (from Galileo), but those results need to be interpreted with caution.

So, estimates of the bulk elemental composition of these bodies relies heavily on modeling (using well-established, earthly, physics) and observational techniques such as helioseismology (and boring things like the bulk density and moments of inertia). You can also consider it to be a kind of linear programming exercise - what values of elemental abundance are consistent with the wide range of different observational and experimental results?
 
Nereid said:
we can't take direct samples of the inside of the Sun, nor Jupiter; in both cases we can only 'see' (in the optical, UV, IR, radio, etc) the 'surface' of the objects. Of course, we have samples of the solar wind (and the recently crashed Genesis satellite would have given us much more data on this!), and some info on the near Jovian environment (from Galileo), but those results need to be interpreted with caution.

FWIW, the Galileo mission also dropped a probe into the cloudtops of Jupiter for some direct measurements.
http://galileo.jpl.nasa.gov/mission/journey-probe.cfm
 
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