Is there a hidden layer in the universe ?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of a potential "hidden layer" in the universe, exploring the implications of such a layer on our understanding of reality, perception, and consciousness. Participants engage with philosophical ideas about the nature of reality, the mind, and the possibility of layers that mediate our experience of the universe.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose a "Presentation" layer that could alter how reality is perceived, suggesting that our understanding of reality might be fundamentally obscured.
  • One participant draws an analogy between the proportion of ordinary matter and dark matter in the universe to consciousness and ego, hinting at deeper layers of existence.
  • Questions arise about the origin of the "Presentation" layer and whether it is a construct of the mind itself, leading to inquiries about the interaction of multiple minds with this layer.
  • Another participant raises fundamental questions regarding a hypothetical world composed solely of minds, including how minds perceive, communicate, reproduce, and experience conflict or death.
  • Concerns are expressed about the implications of solipsism, where only one mind exists, and the challenges of proving or disproving such a state.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the existence and nature of the hidden layer, with no consensus reached. Some engage in speculative reasoning while others challenge the implications of these ideas, indicating a contested discussion.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes various assumptions about the nature of reality and consciousness, with some participants exploring the implications of a hidden layer without resolving the underlying philosophical questions or definitions involved.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in philosophy of mind, metaphysics, and the nature of reality may find this discussion particularly engaging.

eighth man
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The concept is not as abstract as it may seem. Science is developed in a loop of continuous interactions from Reality to the Sense organs(hand, eye) to the Mind and back again from Mind to Sense organ(hand) to Reality as
this diagram Reality (R), Senses(S) and Mind(M) shows:

R -> S -> M
R <- S <- M

Up until now M has always been fixed, but changing M everything changes. In this sense there would be a new and different science. We can imagine also wildly changing S by the way.

An interesting thing is that we can imagine there being an intermediate "invisible" layer called a "Presentation" layer that presents the information from the previous layer in a completely different form and format:

R -> S -> P -> M
R <- S <- P -> M

For example reality R could actually be a solid box of some unknow matter and we just poke at it with some sticks, but the presentation layer hides this and we could never discover this.
We wouldn't notice because it is transparent but it could be there.

Even more interesting is if this layer is at some other point of the diagram:

R -> P -> S -> M
R <- P <- S -> M

In this case you could have for example that reality is a giant simulation in a computer of an unkown alien having completely different physics and the P layer hides this fact from us (we would be in a simulation aka Matrix..) or it could always be a box of some unknow matter and we just poke at it.
The presentation layer hides this and we could never discover this.

In the next diagram we could interpret it as saying everything is only in our mind (or we live in a dream) and there is no external reality at all there
being a layer P that fools us:

P -> S -> M
P <- S -> M

The point is that I can't imagine anyway of discovering this hidden layer!

We have some concrete cases where there are almost invisible layers (but that can be discovered):

1) when we digest food it is almost invisible

2) Some of us can live comfortably in part because there is a layer of workers somewhere in the world who work almost for free (or in the past worked); we don't notice but we use their goods

We are "buffered" from Reality, so extrapolating this to the universe the question becomes interesting...

Any comments ?

TOBOR THE APE
 
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Yeah, the latest estimates are that all of ordinary matter and energy represent about 4% of the total. The rest is all dark matter and energy. The flea on the back of an elephant.

I think you could probably make a similar analogy to consciousness and ego.
 
eighth man said:
In the next diagram we could interpret it as saying everything is only in our mind (or we live in a dream) and there is no external reality at all there
being a layer P that fools us:

P -> S -> M
P <- S -> M

In that case, then where does the 'Presentation' layer come from? Something must decide to fool the mind into believing there is no external reality. The mind itself fools itself?

But if one mind imagines this layer P, then how can multiple minds affect this layer P?
 
PIT2 said:
In that case, then where does the 'Presentation' layer come from? Something must decide to fool the mind into believing there is no external reality. The mind itself fools itself?

But if one mind imagines this layer P, then how can multiple minds affect this layer P?

Good question. And even spookier is the mind that imagines being physically conceived by the coming together of the physical male and female creatures; that imagines to see physical table in front of it; that imagines to touch it, feel the shape, the hardness and so on; that picks up a cup, walks to a bowl of water in the centre of a physical bedroom, pours some into the cup and drinks it, pouring down the throat and into the stomarch...all construed as manifestations of what is entirely a mind? Very spooky...yes, very spooky!
 
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The Hidden World Is A World Of Minds?

Ok, if the hidden world is a world consisting of minds only, the next fundamental questions that require immediate answers are these:

1) VISION

Do minds notice, let alone see, each other at all? If, so how?

2) COMMUNICATION

Since in such a world there are no material bodies, how do minds communicate with each other? Does the Mind-World share the same physics as the Material World?

3) REPRODUCTION

How do minds give rise to one another by the notion of reproduction?

4) PARTS-WHOLE RELATION

If a mind is divisible, we should be able to claim that it has parts? If so, how are parts of a mind configured and functioned? That is, how do they all fit and work together?

5) CONFLICTS

Do minds fight wars, commit suicide, play games, fall ill, tell lies or truths, hate or love etc...etc?

6) DEATH

Can a mind die? Can a mind be killed by another mind? When a mind dies, if it can die in the first place, where do they go?

and so on...the list just goes on? Sorry about asking these sorts of startling questions, I am only trying to imagine how a purely 'MIND-WORLD' would function.
 
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For Reality must, and for always, proceed from QUANTITATIVELY and LOGICALLY consistent relations!
 
I meant "everything is within your own mind", in the example I gave I was thinking there was only one mind your own, like when you dream. So in reality in this example there would really be no other minds except yours, therefore you would be the only mind in exitence. You will never prove this to be wrong, but then in all kinds of cases, like the giant simulator, if a hidden layer exists, you can't percieve it.

TOBOR THE 8 MAN
 
eighth man said:
I meant "everything is within your own mind", in the example I gave I was thinking there was only one mind your own, like when you dream. So in reality in this example there would really be no other minds except yours, therefore you would be the only mind in exitence. You will never prove this to be wrong, but then in all kinds of cases, like the giant simulator, if a hidden layer exists, you can't percieve it.

TOBOR THE 8 MAN

I am not a great fan of solipsism. If solipsism is possible, then I am another mind, merely imagining to sit in front of an illusive computer deluding myself to be physically responding to your posting. Well, I leave that to the judgements of individual world members, if any!
 

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