Simple dipstick problem


by pat666
Tags: dipstick, simple
pat666
pat666 is offline
#1
Feb11-11, 05:27 PM
P: 709
1. The problem statement, all variables and given/known data

I have a problem involving a dipstick, a cone and a cylinder. Basically I want to make a dipstick for a cone and cylinder which shows the volume of remaining fluid in the containers.

2. Relevant equations



3. The attempt at a solution
for the cone
V=pi r^2 *h/3
now I cant find how to relate depth to volume?

please help
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pat666
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#2
Feb11-11, 05:42 PM
P: 709
I just remembered to say that what I'm really really having a problem with is finding the correct relationship between height and radius.

Thanks
ebits21
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#3
Feb11-11, 08:00 PM
P: 51
Well, you could start by focusing on the cylinder.

If the volume of the cylinder is volume = pi * radius^2 * height

Can you rewrite the equation so that you solve for height? If you can do that you know that a certain height on the dipstick will correspond to a certain volume of the cylinder.

Then you can figure out how the cone will add on to that.

pat666
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#4
Feb11-11, 08:04 PM
P: 709

Simple dipstick problem


the cylinder is on its side so its not that simple I don't think??? sorry I forgot to say that in the OP.
ebits21
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#5
Feb11-11, 08:20 PM
P: 51
In that case you need to rewrite the volume equation for the cylinder in terms of the diameter of the cylinder.

Remember that radius = 1/2 the diameter.

That way you'll know the volume that corresponds to the "diameter height" that you have written on the dipstick.

Is the cone attached to the cylinder or is it a separate question?
pat666
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#6
Feb11-11, 08:36 PM
P: 709
the cone is a separate question. so with the diametre V=pi*1/4 D^2 *h then D=sqrt(4V/pi) but that will only work until 1/2 way won't it?
ebits21
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#7
Feb11-11, 08:47 PM
P: 51
You know what, I think I actually made a mistake. I think you're actually going to have to use some trigonometry to solve this.

I'll have to think about this a bit.
pat666
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#8
Feb11-11, 08:49 PM
P: 709
thanks Ill wait for your reply
ebits21
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#9
Feb11-11, 09:27 PM
P: 51
Well, I can say this much. If you look at the cylindrical tank from one of the ends, you would have a circle with the liquid coming up a certain height of the circle.

Therefore the problem becomes a question of finding the area of the segment of the circle below the chord marked by the top of the liquid. This is then multiplied by the length of the cylinder to find the volume.

Since it's a circle, you can draw a line from the center of the circle to the ends of the chord that marks the height of the liquid. Bisecting this, you get two right angle triangles with a hypotenuse equal to the radius, and a height equal to the radius minus the height of the liquid. The angle between these two is then used to figure things out...

Unfortunately... I'm kind of rusty on this so I'm afraid I can't be of much more help. Maybe someone else can take it from here?
pat666
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#10
Feb11-11, 09:35 PM
P: 709
What you are saying at the start makes perfect sense to me and hopefully someone can help me further with the math.

Thanks
ebits21
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#11
Feb11-11, 09:45 PM
P: 51
I thought I would mention another thing.

If you take the area of the "pie slice" that is marked by the lines drawn to the top of the chord (including the area that is swept out to the bottom of the tank), and then you subtract the area of the triangles above the liquid, that should give you the area of the liquid in the circle.
ebits21
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#12
Feb11-11, 10:48 PM
P: 51
I found this on wikipedia... which might help http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_segment

You need to rewrite the area formula in terms of the height of the liquid, and I think that R = h + (r-h) gives you a way to do that.
Mentallic
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#13
Feb11-11, 11:49 PM
HW Helper
P: 3,436
I'm willing to give this question a go, but I can't seem to concentrate at the moment, probably because of my headache. If anyone could give me a jump start with what we're trying to solve, I'll give a lending hand to finish the problem off.
pat666
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#14
Feb12-11, 04:52 AM
P: 709
Hey Mentallic, any/all help is appreciated. Were trying to make a dipstick for a sideways cylinder and a cone. Currently I'm having trouble relating the height of the liquid on the circle to the area of that part.

Thanks
Mentallic
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#15
Feb12-11, 06:43 AM
HW Helper
P: 3,436
Ok since you said in post #6 that the cylinder and cone are separate questions, I'm going to assume that you want a relation between the height and volume of liquid present in a cone on its side (like a wheel) and the cone will be laying down which way exactly?

First of all, do you know about and are you supposed to use integration?
pat666
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#16
Feb12-11, 06:48 AM
P: 709
Cone is upright, cylinder is on its side. I know integration but this is for an 11th grader I'm helping, I seem to have forgotten everything from then. No integration for him yet though. It is the cone question that I need help with as there is ample information on the cylinder on the net.

Thanks and hopefully the fact that its upright (ice cream cone ways) makes this simpler and sorry for not stating this directly.
Mentallic
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#17
Feb12-11, 07:18 AM
HW Helper
P: 3,436
Alright sure, and yes it does make the problem easier

Ok so I'm guessing that the dimensions of the cone are known constants. Let's give it a base radius R and perpendicular height H, so the volume of the cone is [tex]V=\frac{\pi R^2 H}{3}[/tex]

Now let's fill this cone up a bit with water, the water level will be at a height h. Now, just look at the part of the cone that isn't filled with water - it's a smaller cone with height H-h. Let the radius of this cone be r.

So the volume of the water is now simply [tex]V=\frac{\pi R^2 H}{3}-\frac{\pi r^2 (H-h)}{3}[/tex]

Ok so what constants do we know in this formula? We know R, H, h (because this will be observed on the dipstick) and we don't know r. Well r is pretty easy to find, just take a side-view of the cone and look at one side of the cone. It will be a right triangle with height H and length R. There will be another similar but smaller right triangle within it with height H-h and length r. Since these triangles are similar, their dimensions are proportional to each other. Can you take it from here?
pat666
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#18
Feb12-11, 07:27 AM
P: 709
I should be able to.One thing that I'm not totally sure about is the "cone" that isn't filled with water, is this a cone, or at least does its volume follow the standard volume formula for a cone??


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