Show it without using induction?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding a way to demonstrate the equation involving the function f(x) = 2x/(2x-1) without using mathematical induction. Participants explore various algebraic manipulations and relationships between sums to derive the expression for S(n).

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant asks how to show the sum S(n) = f(n) + f(n)f(n-1) + ... + f(n)f(n-1)...f(1) equals 2n without induction.
  • Another participant suggests relating S(n) to S(n-1) and hints at commonalities in the left-hand side of the equation.
  • One participant observes that writing out terms of the products reveals a pattern resembling factorials, leading to a potential simplification.
  • Another participant proposes that S(n) can be expressed as f(n) multiplied by S(n-1) and attempts to derive a formula involving factorials.
  • A later reply corrects an earlier claim about the relationship between S(n) and S(n-1), suggesting a different form of the equation.
  • Participants discuss the implications of finding a first-order difference equation and how to guess a solution based on the function f(n).
  • One participant emphasizes that checking if 2n satisfies the recurrence relation is a valid approach to demonstrate the solution.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correct formulation of S(n) and its relationship to S(n-1). There is no consensus on the final approach to demonstrate the equation without induction, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the complexity of the relationships involved and the changing nature of parameters in their equations, indicating potential limitations in their approaches.

3.14lwy
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how to show this:

if f(x) = 2x/(2x-1)

then show f(n) + f(n)f(n-1) + f(n)f(n-1)f(n-2) + ... + f(n)f(n-1)f(n-2)...f(1) = 2n .


I have tried to use induction , and I can show it.
but , I can't show it without using induction.


can anyone tell how to show it without using induction?

thank you ! :smile:
 
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let S(n) be the sum you want.

Can you relate S(n) to S(n-1) algebraically? Hint, does the LHS of your equation have anything common to every term?
 
Do you see what happens when you write out a few terms of the products?

[tex]f(1)f(2)= \frac{2}{1}\frac{4}{3}= \frac{(2)(4)}{(1){3}}[/tex]
[tex]f(1)f(2)f(3)= \frac{2}{1}\frac{4}{3}\frac{6}{5}= \frac{(2)(4)(6)}{(1)(3)(5)[/tex]
and so on. You get a fraction with something "like" a factorial in both numerator and denominator except that the numerator has only even numbers and the denominator only odd numbers.

(2)(4)(6)...(2n)= (2)(1)(2)(2)(2)(3)...(2)(n)= 2n n!
and (1)(3)(5)...(2n+1)= ((1)(2)(3)(4)(5)...(2n)(2n+1))/(2)(4)...(2n))
= (2n+1)!/(2nn!)
Does that give you any ideas?
 
matt grime said:
let S(n) be the sum you want.

Can you relate S(n) to S(n-1) algebraically? Hint, does the LHS of your equation have anything common to every term?


I find S(n) = f(n)*S(n-1)

and f(n) = (2^2n)(n!)/(2n+1)!

then , S(n) = product of (2^2r)(r!)/(2r+1)! from r = 1 to n

am I right ?

however i still don't know how to do?
 
3.14lwy said:
I find S(n) = f(n)*S(n-1)
am I right?

No, you're not right.
 
matt grime said:
No, you're not right.

Oh! :-p

it should be S(n) = f(n)[1 + S(n-1)]

but still don't know :confused:

if it is in this from:

X(n) = aX(n-1) + b

i can find X(n) in term of a , b and X(1) ,


but now the a and the b is changing........ :confused:
 
You've found a first order difference equation. As with differential equations you guess a solution by inspection based upon f(n).
 
matt grime said:
You've found a first order difference equation. As with differential equations you guess a solution by inspection based upon f(n).

S(n) = f(n)[1 + S(n-1)]

S(n) - S(n-1) = f(n)[1 + S(n-1)] - S(n-1)
= f(n) + [f(n) - 1]S(n-1)

____________________________________________________

S(1) = 2/1 = 2

S(2) = 4/3 + 8/3 = 12/3 = 4

S(3) = 6/5 + (6*4)/(5*3) + (6*4*2)/(5*3*1)
= 2*3/5 + 2*4/5 + 2*4*2/5
= 2[3/5 + 3*(4/5)]
= 2*3*(5/5) = 6

S(4)
...
...
...
..
.

S(2) - S(1) = 2......
......


I really cannot find the solution :cry:
 
Last edited:
You're given 2n, and asked to *show* it is the solution, so it is perfectly acceptable to check it satisfies the recurrence relation by simple substitution.

And:

[tex]S(n) = \frac{2n(1+S(n-1))}{2n-1}[/tex]

it is clear what kind of answer you should guess from looking at that ie that 2n is what you want since 2n-1 = 2(n-1)+1
 
Last edited:

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