Divergence and solenoidal vector fields

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around identifying conditions under which specific vector fields are solenoidal, focusing on the divergence of these fields. Participants explore mathematical expressions and calculations related to divergence, as well as the implications of certain parameters on the solenoidal nature of the fields.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant seeks to determine which values of n make the vector field \underline{F} = {|\underline{r}|}^n\underline{r} solenoidal by evaluating its divergence.
  • Another participant corrects their initial expression for \underline{F} and provides the components \underline{F_x}, \underline{F_y}, and \underline{F_z} as \underline{F}_x = {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}x, \underline{F}_y = {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}y, \underline{F}_z = {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}z.
  • There is a discussion about the divergence calculation leading to the expression \nabla \cdot \vec{F} = 3(x^2+y^2+z^2)^{n/2} + n(x^2+y^2+z^2)^{n/2}, with a suggestion that setting this equal to zero leads to n = -3, assuming (x^2+y^2+z^2)^{n/2} ≠ 0.
  • A new vector field involving a uniform vector \underline{a} is introduced, and the participant seeks guidance on finding the value of \lambda that makes this field solenoidal.
  • Another participant questions the interpretation of 'a is uniform' and asks for further clarification on the algebra involved.
  • One participant suggests that if \lambda = 1, the divergence could be zero, implying the field is solenoidal, but seeks confirmation on this reasoning.
  • There is a correction regarding the expression for the vector field, clarifying that it should include a power of 3/2 to maintain vector status.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the conditions for solenoidal vector fields, particularly in relation to the values of n and λ. There are multiple competing views on how to approach the calculations and interpretations of the vector fields.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in their calculations and reasoning, particularly regarding the assumptions made about uniformity and the algebraic manipulations involved in determining divergence.

MathematicalPhysics
Messages
40
Reaction score
0
I want to find which values of n make the vector field

[tex]\underline{F} = {|\underline{r}|}^n\underline{r}[/tex] solenoidal.

So I have to evaluate the divergence of this vector field I think, then show for which values of n it is zero?

Im starting by substituting:

[tex]\underline{r} = \sqrt{x^2 + y^2 + z^2}[/tex]

getting..

[tex]\underline{F} = {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}\sqrt{x^2 + y^2 + z^2}[/tex]

How can I extract

[tex]\underline{F_x}, \underline{F_y}, \underline{F_z}[/tex]?

It's probably really simple but I can't see it! Thanks in advance.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Yeah I was being daft, after sleeping on it I came up with:

[tex]\underline{F} = [{(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}x, {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}y, {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}z][/tex]

That's better, yeah?

so
[tex]\underline{F}_x = {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}x[/tex]
[tex]\underline{F}_y = {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}y[/tex]
[tex]\underline{F}_z = {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}z[/tex]

now
[tex]\frac{\partial\underline{F}_x}{\partial x} = nx^2{(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{(n/2)-1} + {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}[/tex]

Hmm if n = 0 the first term is zero as required but the second term would become 1. So how can I find the values of n for which this is zero?
 
Last edited:
MathematicalPhysics said:
[tex]\frac{\partial\underline{F}_x}{\partial x} = nx^2{(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{(n/2)-1} + {(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)}^{n/2}[/tex]

Hmm if n = 0 the first term is zero as required but the second term would become 1. So how can I find the values of n for which this is zero?

Calculating [itex]\nabla \cdot \vec{F}[/itex] should give you:

[tex]3(x^2+y^2+z^2)^{n/2} + n(x^2+y^2+z^2)^{n/2}[/tex]

Set that equal to zero and solving for n whould give you n = -3 as long as [itex](x^2+y^2+z^2)^{n/2} \ne 0[/itex].

I think...
 
Last edited:
Thanks, I was having trouble simplifying my expression for divF, knowing what I was aiming for gave me the confidence to proceed lol! Cheers,

Matt.
 
Following on I'm trying to find the value of [tex]\lambda[/tex] which makes

[tex]\frac{\lambda\underline{a}}{|\underline{r}|^3} - \frac{(\underline{a}.\underline{r})\underline{r}}{|\underline{r}|^5}[/tex]

solenoidal. Where a is uniform.

I think I have to use div(PF) = PdivF + F.gradP (where P is a scalar field and F a vector field)

and grad(a.r) = a for fixed a.

So when calculating Div of the above, there should the a scalar field in there somewhere that I can separate out?!

I need some pointers please!
 
I don't understand what you mean when you say that 'a is uniform'. Fiddle around with the algebra and show me how far you get.
 
If this is wrong I can post my working (but its tedious to keep latexing my results!)

I get the expression down to [tex]\frac{(\lambda -1)a}{x^2+y^2+z^2}[/tex]

so could I just say that if [tex]\lambda = 1[/tex] this would give "[tex]\underline{F}[/tex]" say to be zero which implies dF/dx, dF/dy, dF/dz are all zero so divF = 0 which means it is solenoidal?

Thanks for being patient.

edit** is the (lambda -1)a the scalar field P to plug into that formula?
 
Last edited:
Where did you get that formula from? It makes no sense to me (i.e. you can't distribute an operator acting on different objects, scalars and vectors in this case). I know it's tedious to show your work but I can't really tell what your doing. For example, you obtained an expression which isn't even a vector!
 
sorry it was meant to be..

[tex]\frac{(\lambda -1)a}{(x^2 + y^2 + z^2)^{3/2}} = \frac{(\lambda -1)a}{|\underline{r}|^3}[/tex]

I forgot the 3/2 power which didn't make it a vector as you pointed out!
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
5K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
3K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 15 ·
Replies
15
Views
2K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K