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Observing the physics of Black Hole interiors‏

by aljo2345
Tags: black, hole, interiors‏, observing, physics
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aljo2345
#1
Dec12-11, 06:28 PM
P: 6
I am writing to propose an experiment to observe the physical affect on matter within the interior of Black Holes. The approach requires combining the phenomena of Quantum Entanglement with the manufacture of mini Black Holes in the CERN’s LHC (Large Hadron Collider): A paper by Choptuik and Pretorius, published on March 17, 2010 in Physical Review Letters, presented a computer-generated evidence that micro black holes could form from two colliding particles with sufficient energy, which might be allowable at the energies of the LHC if additional dimensions are present other than the customary four (three space, one time). Due to the unobservable nature of a black hole’s interior (and by extension any physical process that occur within it) I am proposing an indirect method of ascertaining the nature of a black hole’s interior by its influence on entangled matter. As you may already know, Quantum Entanglement is the effect where one object gets connected to another so that even if they are separated by large distances, an action performed on one will affect the other. Recently, physicists have succeeded in demonstrating that these quantum mechanical effects are not limited to the microscopic scale, but can be produced at the macro level (http://www.livescience.com/17264-qua...-diamonds.html.). In future, perhaps, an experiment could be devised where one of a quantum entangled pair could be sent in to an artificially produced black hole. In doing so, one could observe the effect on the other spatially separated but connected pair. Albert Einstein's theory of special relativity showed that energy has an equivalent mass, and mass has an equivalent energy. Further to this, the law of conservation of energy states that the energies in an isolated system is a constant; that energy may neither be created nor destroyed. Wouldn’t it be interesting to see what happened???
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e.bar.goum
#2
Dec12-11, 06:36 PM
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P: 189
... I can't even begin to explain how wrong you are.
aljo2345
#3
Dec12-11, 06:52 PM
P: 6
Thats a little terse... well try, if you can?

Nabeshin
#4
Dec12-11, 07:02 PM
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Observing the physics of Black Hole interiors‏

Quantum entanglement does not transmit information. So you cannot hope to get out any information from beyond the event horizon by this method.
e.bar.goum
#5
Dec12-11, 07:02 PM
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P: 189
I'm not sure if I can. Or I should. But, lets go.

Firstly, it is doubtful (at the very least) that the LHC can produce micro black holes. Higher energy reactions occur in the upper atmosphere all the time - no black holes there. And in any case, it is theorized that such a black hole would evaporate far too quickly to be of any use (or danger). Indeed, I think Hawking said that the only thing that would happen if the LHC produced black holes would be that he would win a Nobel Prize. After a year of data, no black holes. Surprise.

Next - even if you could produce a micro-black hole in the LHC, how do you propose to study it? You can't simply pull out particles from the middle of the beam line! Then you'd have to transport it, blah blah blah.

Then! I'm not sure if you fully understand entanglement. Even if you could sent an entangled particle into a black hole without destroying the entanglement (entanglement is fairly fragile), it's not like you can get any information about the black hole out of an EPR-type experiment anyway.

I'm sure I've missed some things, but that's a start.

And I'm not even sure what you're going on about with the comments about SR
aljo2345
#6
Dec12-11, 07:02 PM
P: 6
No..... Ok, you are right then, it must be beyond you.
Joncon
#7
Dec12-11, 07:03 PM
P: 57
You'd get no information whatsoever by looking at one particle of an entangled pair. If you could, you could create an FTL communication device, which isn't possible.
You only get information in entanglement experiments by comparing the results of measurements on both particles, which would be difficult as one of your particles is inside a black hole. This is a problem.
e.bar.goum
#8
Dec12-11, 07:04 PM
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P: 189
Beyond me? I hardly think so. Beyond you? Perhaps.

Do you have any evidence to back up your claims?
e.bar.goum
#9
Dec12-11, 07:13 PM
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P: 189
I just got curious about the effect of non-inertial motion (aka falling into a black hole) on entangled particles. I found this http://prl.aps.org/pdf/PRL/v95/i12/e120404 (Alice Falls into a Black Hole: Entanglement in Noninertial Frames, Fuentes-Schuller and Mann, PRL 95, 2004) - it turns out that entanglement is observer dependent, and the accleration degrades the entanglement seen by one observer falling into the black hole, and the other just escaping.

So, there's that.

But yes, hardly the most important problem in the OP's "experiment".
aljo2345
#10
Dec12-11, 07:16 PM
P: 6
Thank you for your response. I am well aware of all of the above (evaporating black holes and the proposed hawking radiation, upper atmosphere collisions and no black holes, the EPR paradox blah blah, blah) what i am simply proposing here is an idea for discussion (i.e possibilities) perhaps some future experiment, if possible. You are working on the assumption that it is all worked out and that there is nowhere else to go. How one would go about conducting such an experiment, that is not really the point here.
DaveC426913
#11
Dec12-11, 07:17 PM
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Quote Quote by aljo2345 View Post
...ascertaining the nature of a black hole’s interior by its influence on entangled matter. ...
an action performed on one will affect the other.
aljo2345, this is not how it works. You should read up on quantum entanglement before proposing experiments.
PAllen
#12
Dec12-11, 07:18 PM
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Quote Quote by e.bar.goum View Post
I just got curious about the effect of non-inertial motion (aka falling into a black hole) on entangled particles. I found this http://prl.aps.org/pdf/PRL/v95/i12/e120404 (Alice Falls into a Black Hole: Entanglement in Noninertial Frames, Fuentes-Schuller and Mann, PRL 95, 2004) - it turns out that entanglement is observer dependent, and the accleration degrades the entanglement seen by one observer falling into the black hole, and the other just escaping.

So, there's that.

But yes, hardly the most important problem in the OP's "experiment".
Except that in GR, falling into a black hole is inertial motion. A rocket hovering near a black hole would an example of non-inertial motion. If they are using the SR definition of inertial combined with a GR phenomenon like a black hole, that is pretty strange.
e.bar.goum
#13
Dec12-11, 07:21 PM
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P: 189
The point that you are missing is that it is *impossible* to get information from an entangled pair.

Not just "we don't know how", but "it has been shown conclusively, and at a second year university physics level that it is not possible" to get information from an EPR experiment.

There is thus no point in discussing a future experiment, because it is not possible
Passionflower
#14
Dec12-11, 07:22 PM
P: 1,555
Quote Quote by PAllen View Post
Except that in GR, falling into a black hole is inertial motion.
Only if the black hole is not charged.
e.bar.goum
#15
Dec12-11, 07:23 PM
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P: 189
Quote Quote by PAllen View Post
Except that in GR, falling into a black hole is inertial motion. A rocket hovering near a black hole would an example of non-inertial motion. If they are using the SR definition of inertial combined with a GR phenomenon like a black hole, that is pretty strange.
That's a good point. I need to reread the paper, but, from the abstract:
Two observers determine the entanglement between two free bosonic modes by each detecting one of
the modes and observing the correlations between their measurements. We show that a state which is
maximally entangled in an inertial frame becomes less entangled if the observers are relatively
accelerated. This phenomenon, which is a consequence of the Unruh effect, shows that entanglement
is an observer-dependent quantity in noninertial frames. In the high acceleration limit, our results can be
applied to a nonaccelerated observer falling into a black hole while the accelerated one barely escapes. If
the observer escapes with infinite acceleration, the state’s distillable entanglement vanishes
aljo2345
#16
Dec12-11, 07:29 PM
P: 6
Thanks for the links!
PAllen
#17
Dec12-11, 07:40 PM
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Quote Quote by Passionflower View Post
Only if the black hole is not charged.
True. Astronomic black holes have zero chance of being charged to any significant amount, but (if they are produced at all), LHC black holes may be charged.
PAllen
#18
Dec12-11, 07:42 PM
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Quote Quote by e.bar.goum View Post
That's a good point. I need to reread the paper, but, from the abstract:
Two observers determine the entanglement between two free bosonic modes by each detecting one of
the modes and observing the correlations between their measurements. We show that a state which is
maximally entangled in an inertial frame becomes less entangled if the observers are relatively
accelerated. This phenomenon, which is a consequence of the Unruh effect, shows that entanglement
is an observer-dependent quantity in noninertial frames. In the high acceleration limit, our results can be
applied to a nonaccelerated observer falling into a black hole while the accelerated one barely escapes. If
the observer escapes with infinite acceleration, the state’s distillable entanglement vanishes
Well that's clear. The escaping observer is the accelerated one.


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