No 2 electrons can have the same energy state

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    Electrons Energy State
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the statement made by Brian Cox regarding electrons and their energy states, specifically whether no two electrons can occupy the same energy state and the implications of this on a universal scale. Participants explore the nuances of quantum numbers, orbital sharing, and the potential instantaneous adjustment of electrons across the universe.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that no two electrons can occupy the same quantum state, while others clarify that electrons can occupy different states with the same energy.
  • One participant expresses confusion over the claim that every electron in the universe must adjust its energy state when one electron in an atom becomes excited.
  • Another participant challenges the idea that electron states are universally interconnected, emphasizing that electron states are typically localized to individual atoms.
  • A later reply critiques the simplification of electron behavior, stating that the many-body wave function must be anti-symmetric and that electrons can occupy different spin-orbitals with the same energy.
  • Some participants question the lack of explanation regarding instantaneous action at a distance and suggest that concepts like entanglement or the holographic principle should have been addressed.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the implications of Cox's statement, with multiple competing views regarding the nature of electron states and their interactions across the universe. The discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the understanding of quantum states, including the dependence on approximations and the context in which statements about electron behavior are made.

boffinwannabe
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i was watching the Brian Cox 'night with the stars'. He said that no 2 electrons can have the same energy state. Is this correct? i thought they couldn't have the same quantum numbers but can even share the same orbital (thus same energy). I also thought this applied to the same atom only, but he stated it applies to the universe and every time an electron in an atom jumps to a new energy state, actually he just said has more energy, then every electron in the universe has to adjust its energy state, instantly. Can someone put some detail on this as i haven't come across this before. The only understanding i have of particles seemingly being able to communicate instantly no matter how far apart they are is in entanglement, but he didnt seem to be suggesting this was the mechanism.
 
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No two electrons can occupy the same state, although they are perfectly happy to occupy different states with the same energy.
and every time an electron in an atom jumps to a new energy state, actually he just said has more energy, then every electron in the universe has to adjust its energy state, instantly.
I hope he didn't say that, because it's nonsense. In most cases, electron states are localized to a single atom [usually!] and if an electron in atom A becomes excited it has no effect at all on atom B. Certainly not to the atoms on Alpha Centauri.
 
yes he stated every other electron across the universe has to switch its state to ensure no 2 electrons have the same energy state.
 
boffinwannabe said:
yes he stated every other electron across the universe has to switch its state to ensure no 2 electrons have the same energy state.
That statement is wrong. First, the correct statement is "The (non-relativistic) many-body wave function of interacting electrons must be anti-symmetric." Only with a bunch of approximations (namely, a mean-field model of electronic interactions) this turns into "In a Slater determinant, no two electrons can occupy the same spin-orbital" (from which that "no same states"-statement originates). And *even then*, two electrons can still happily occupy different spin-orbitals with the same energy, as long as they differ in some other quantum number (e.g., spin, spatial symmetry, etc).

This is not merely a technicality. The "states" (one-particle states, also called "orbitals") this guy is speaking about simply don't exist. They are properties of approximations.
 
Professor Cox had a gratuitous laugh at new-age mysticism. Then, later, he introduced what looked like instantaneous action at a distance without any explanation. Downright spooky. Could the universe somehow be represented by a single huge time-independent wave function? Was Prof. Cox talking about the holographic principle? Should he have mentioned entanglement (as has been suggested above)?
Prof. Cox did not explain it at all and I think it should therefore have been left out.
 
boffinwannabe said:
i was watching the Brian Cox 'night with the stars'. He said that no 2 electrons can have the same energy state. Is this correct? i thought they couldn't have the same quantum numbers but can even share the same orbital (thus same energy). I also thought this applied to the same atom only, but he stated it applies to the universe and every time an electron in an atom jumps to a new energy state, actually he just said has more energy, then every electron in the universe has to adjust its energy state, instantly. Can someone put some detail on this as i haven't come across this before. The only understanding i have of particles seemingly being able to communicate instantly no matter how far apart they are is in entanglement, but he didnt seem to be suggesting this was the mechanism.

See also this thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=561511 and reply from the man himself (becox).
 
tx didnt see that one.
 

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